Discussion:
Dwarves and Wrong Runes
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Sul
2003-09-26 01:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Has anyone else noticed that on Thror's Map in the hobbit the runes are not
Tolkien's Cirith runes, but Anglo-Saxon runes? If you have, can you tell me
why the Dwarves even knew about Anglo-Saxon runes? Had Tolkien made Cirith
runes at that point?
coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
2003-09-26 03:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sul
Has anyone else noticed that on Thror's Map in the hobbit the runes are not
Tolkien's Cirith runes, but Anglo-Saxon runes? If you have, can you tell me
why the Dwarves even knew about Anglo-Saxon runes? Had Tolkien made Cirith
runes at that point?
jrrt noticed that himself

the hobbit was originally disconnected from the simarillion
anybody can read the maps with no knowledge of the lotr
if he had used cirith daeron at the time of publication
he wouldve been the only one to read ti
TT Arvind
2003-09-26 08:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sul
Has anyone else noticed that on Thror's Map in the hobbit the runes are not
Tolkien's Cirith runes, but Anglo-Saxon runes? If you have, can you tell me
why the Dwarves even knew about Anglo-Saxon runes? Had Tolkien made Cirith
runes at that point?
Doesn't Tolkien say in the foreword that he has used English runes in
place of the Dwarf runes? I don't have the book to hand, and can't
check.
--
Meneldil

To those who cannot smile in joy the wide world
Lies engulfed in darkness even in broad daylight
- the tirukkural
Matthew Bladen
2003-09-26 17:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by TT Arvind
Post by Sul
Has anyone else noticed that on Thror's Map in the hobbit the runes are not
Tolkien's Cirith runes, but Anglo-Saxon runes? If you have, can you tell me
why the Dwarves even knew about Anglo-Saxon runes? Had Tolkien made Cirith
runes at that point?
Doesn't Tolkien say in the foreword that he has used English runes in
place of the Dwarf runes? I don't have the book to hand, and can't
check.
He does, and adds that the Dwarf-rune for Z may be used as there is no
English runic equivalent. This symbol is no. 17 in the Angerthas table from
LOTR Appendix E, which was originally 'nj' but was used for 'z' by the
Dwarves of Moria. However, the Dwarves of *Erebor* used it for 'x' and
not 'z'...

I'm vaguely familiar with the development of the tengwar, but not of the
cirth, so I don't know whether the reference to the 'Dwarf-rune' in 'The
Hobbit' refers back to a writing system already in progress, or whether it
was developed between 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings', although
I would tentatively lean towards the former, and regard the story-internal
change in usage as a sign that Tolkien had been niggling over them for a
while. Does anyone have more information about the development of the
cirth?
--
Matthew
the softrat
2003-09-27 03:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sul
Has anyone else noticed that on Thror's Map in the hobbit the runes are not
Tolkien's Cirith runes, but Anglo-Saxon runes?
Yes, I did. (And the are 'modified' Anglo-Saxon runes.)
Post by Sul
If you have, can you tell me why the Dwarves even knew about
Anglo-Saxon runes?
It was a substitution by the 'translator'.
Post by Sul
Had Tolkien made Cirith runes at that point?
I dunno. See HoME. He had made the Tengwar by then ('then' being the
publication of _The Hobbit_) See also perhaps _The Father Christmas
Letters_ or _Pictures by JRR Tolkien_.




the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory. --
Steven Wright

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