Frodo's despair on Mount Doom

It seems "Christopher Kreuzer" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien in

I don't know whether I'd describe it as despair, precisely. Frodo
was utterly weary, after months of privation. And he was high up on
an active volcano in mid-eruption. Seems to me it was pretty
rational to think that this was "the end of all things".

Sam on the other hand was completely unrealistic, but fortunately he
was also correct, beyond hope. :-)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Leading on from that, does Frodo's despair and being resigned to death
have any impact on his inability to reintegrate into the Shire,
eventually contributing to his desire to sail West and be healed?
Conversely, does Sam's refusal to despair, help him regain a normal
life?

No, I don't think either of those is the case. Frodo was never
really well after the Quest. Even so, remember that he did act as
Mayor during "Reconstruction". I think he thought of himself as "in
retirement", having earned a quiet life and desiring nothing more
except maybe one day to see Bilbo again. He may also have pondered
Arwen's words and realized that it would not do to get too involved
in the Shire since he must leave it soon.

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Christopher Kreuzer

2004-01-18 22:57:12 UTC

Tolkien's

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
world, or so I recall, but can it ever be justified?

Maybe. I do empathize with Frodo's feelings, but I think that you have
to look a bit closer at what Frodo and Sam say.

At the end of the 'Mount Doom' chapter, Frodo says:

"For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here
with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."

Which is clearly Frodo saying that he doesn't think they can escape, and
he is making his peace with himself. I know that Sam reports that
Frodo's eyes showed that the burden had been removed, but it also shows
that Frodo is at peace and is not fearful. Reminiscent of Aragorn's and
the Numenorean habit of embracing death willingly. Being at peace and
giving back the gift.

Which leads me to reconsider my terming it despair. Definitely not
despair in the way Denethor despaired! But still an important moment
that has an impact later on. Would Frodo later regret his willingness to
give up then and not carry on for a bit longer like Sam makes him do?

There is also a story-external reason for finishing the chapter on this
note, which is simply to heighten the dramatic tension for the reader
who thinks that Frodo and Sam are about to die.

Something I hadn't noticed before is the fact that when we next meet
Frodo and Sam in the book, a few pages into 'The Field of Cormallen',
Frodo's lines are REPEATED! I can understand Tolkien doing this, mainly
to make the connection back to the previous scene after a few intense
paragraphs showing what happened at the Black Gate.

Is such repetition of phrases a common literary device? Reminds me of
the fade-out and back that was done in the Peter Jackson film, same
setting, same view of Sam and Frodo passed out on that rock.

Looking more closely at what happens after Frodo's line:

"I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."

Sam's reply gently rebukes his master:

"... And the journey's finished. But after coming all that way I don't
want to give up yet. It's not like me somehow, if you understand."

But Frodo's answer is still downhearted. Can we speculate a lingering
effect of the Ring, despite Sam thinking that the old Frodo is back?

"Maybe not Sam, but it's like things are in the world. Hope fails. An
end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin
and downfall, and there is no escape."

Pure speculation, but this attitude also reminds me of the "fey,
fell-hearted and heathenish" attitude expressed by Torhthelm in 'The
Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son' at the end of the poem
(ending "doom shall come and dark conquer"). Tidwald's reply is a more
pragmatic response, maybe like Sam's response here:

"Well, Master, we could at least go further from this dangerous place
here, from this Crack of Doom, if that's its name. Now couldn't we?
Come, Mr Frodo, let's go down the path at any rate!

Frodo's reply reinforces the apathy he has sunk into:

"Very well, Sam. If you wish to go, I'll come."

We don't hear from Frodo again until they wake in safety. Sam continues
to express his desire to live:

"What a tale we have been in, Mr Frodo, haven't we? I wish I could hear
it told! ... I wish I could hear it!"

Then the narrator tells us how Sam still looks for rescue:

"But even while he spoke so, to keep the fear away until the very last,
his eyes still strayed north, north into the eye of the wind, to where
the sky far off was clear..."

Most of what Frodo says is understandable, but the real 'red flag' for
me is when Frodo says:

"Hope fails."

I was under the distinct impression that a big theme of Tolkien was that
hope never fails. I would have been interested to see Frodo's reaction
when he wakes up in safety. Unfortunately, unlike the film, we don't see
this in the book, and we see Sam's reaction and Gandalf's laughter.

Post by Stan Brown
Sam on the other hand was completely unrealistic, but fortunately he
was also correct, beyond hope. :-)

No, I don't think either of those is the case.

So you don't think that having to adjust to life again after resigning
yourself to death is difficult to do? You don't think it could have had
some effect? I would have thought that a near-death experience would
totally change a person's outlook on life. It is commonly reported that
those who faced death and survived say that they appreciate life a lot
more afterwards. Combined with the effect of the Ring, this may have
made Frodo's torment all the more acute. I think people tend to
overestimate the physical impact of Frodo's wounds, and underestimate
the impact of the mental torment he must have suffered.

Christopher

--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Johnny1A

2004-01-19 05:25:24 UTC

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Most of what Frodo says is understandable, but the real 'red flag' for
"Hope fails."
I was under the distinct impression that a big theme of Tolkien was that
hope never fails. I would have been interested to see Frodo's reaction
when he wakes up in safety. Unfortunately, unlike the film, we don't see
this in the book, and we see Sam's reaction and Gandalf's laughter.
Christopher

I _think_ that maybe, Frodo might have felt a tiny bit of rueful
chagrin after he awakened in Ithilien, along with relief and delight
(he and Sam are alive, Gandalf is alive, Aragorn is King, one
wonderful development after another).

The chagrin might have been a very gentle chiding from Eru about
giving up hope, but I don't think Frodo was much to blame. Much of
his mental state at the end would have been a combination of sheer
_exhaustion_, from carrying the Ring so far on such an arduous
journey, tormented by hunger, thirst, fear, and supernatural
temptation, and relief, at the spiritual torment's end.

Shermanlee

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-19 05:39:25 UTC

Post by Johnny1A
The chagrin might have been a very gentle chiding from Eru about
giving up hope, but I don't think Frodo was much to blame. Much of
his mental state at the end would have been a combination of sheer
_exhaustion_, from carrying the Ring so far on such an arduous
journey, tormented by hunger, thirst, fear, and supernatural
temptation, and relief, at the spiritual torment's end.

Perhaps the Field of Cormallen was a short reprieve from the physical
torment, but not and end to it yet. Frodo had afterall claimed the Ring
then had it ripped from him. He was still tormented by his desire for
it, and wouldn't find true relief until he found healing in Elvenhome.

His continued desire for the Ring, and his self reproach (he didn't need
Eru to chide him!) for having such feelings, along with the knowledge
that he "failed" in his quest were more reasons for despair than the
wounds of knife, sting and tooth.

IMHO

BTW good to see you posting again!

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-19 06:26:08 UTC

Post by Bill O'Meally
Perhaps the Field of Cormallen was a short reprieve from the physical
torment,

Sorry. I meant to say *spiritual* torment.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Flora Foxburr

2004-01-22 05:34:10 UTC

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
So you don't think that having to adjust to life again after resigning
yourself to death is difficult to do? You don't think it could have had
some effect? I would have thought that a near-death experience would
totally change a person's outlook on life. It is commonly reported that
those who faced death and survived say that they appreciate life a lot
more afterwards. Combined with the effect of the Ring, this may have
made Frodo's torment all the more acute. I think people tend to
overestimate the physical impact of Frodo's wounds, and underestimate
the impact of the mental torment he must have suffered.
Christopher

You are absolutely right on this point! Frodo's post-war life was filled
with psychological pain. The memories of the trauma he experienced for so
long would not just simply go away. He had expected to return home, put the
past behind him and get on with his old life in the Shire. Once Frodo
realized that he had been permanently scarred with a desire to own the Ring,
probably after his first illness October 6, S.R. 1419, discouragement and
depression set in. His sense of failure only compounded his depression. As
time went on Frodo found it more and more difficult to enjoy the peaceful
life he fought so hard for and in fact began focusing his attention on the
"fact" that the nightmarish memories and physical pain would always be with
him. The more he focused on his woundedness, the deeper into depression he
fell. Frodo's deepest wound turned out to be his "sense of woundedness" (Too
Deeply Hurt: Understanding Frodo's Decision to Depart, by Karyn Milos, issue
36 of Mallorn), his realization that in ME he would never find peace. Frodo
is a classic case study of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Chocoholic

2004-01-23 01:36:35 UTC

Post by Flora Foxburr

Hmm, not surprising since his creator is a WW I veteran...

So... Why didn't he invent a fantasy world and embark on a career as an
author? :)

Guess Tolkien didn't like recursion either...

Morgoth's Curse

2004-02-10 00:21:14 UTC

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 05:34:10 GMT, "Flora Foxburr"

Post by Flora Foxburr

I have followed this thread with interest and I am struck by the fact
that all the participants have focused solely on the effects of
Frodo's wounds and horrific experiences. I believe it is equally
important to recall that Frodo was equally or perhaps even more
affected by his marvelous, profound, beautiful experiences. Frodo had
been restless and discontent even before he left the Shire and his
adventures and travels could only have exacerbated this
characteristic. How could he be content to endure the hobbits'
frivolous chatter about distant cousins and ancestors when he had
listened to the tales of Elrond, Aragorn, Gimli & Faramir? How could
he stroll through the woods of the Shire without being reminded of the
magnificence and vitality of the forests of Lorien? How he must have
yearned for the music of Nimrodhel while he strolled along the banks
of the Water in Hobbiton! Imagine his disillusionment: He had thought
or at least hoped that a return to the familiar fields and roads of
his youth would help heal his spirit and instead it had only made
matters worse. He was able to ignore this heartache for the first few
months after the Scouring of the Shire; he had his hands full
directing the restoration of order within the Shire. Once this was
accomplished or delegated to the capable hands of Sam Gamgee, he had
little to do. He wrote a great deal (I suspect as much from a sense
of obligation to Bilbo as from any private desire to instruct his
fellow hobbits) and that meant revisiting in memory Lorien & Rivendell
as well as Mordor and Moria.

I like to think of Frodo sitting in his study and contemplatively
gazing out the window at the flowers blossoming in the afternoon and
thinking of the flowers of Cerin Amroth or perhaps the Simbelmyne on
the mound of Theodon in Rohan and understanding the truth of the old
adage that you can't go home again. He had known this even before he
returned to the Shire: "There is no real going back. Though I may
come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the
same." I have long thought that Frodo probably would have gone to the
Havens earlier if only he did not have to wait for Bilbo.

We see traces of this in the other Travelers: Sam had spent a year in
Gondor in 1442 and eventually followed Frodo over the Sea and Merry
and Pippin eventually retire to Gondor.

Morgoth's Curse

Vandevere

2004-01-19 00:27:18 UTC

I don't think Frodo's problem-after the destruction of the Ring-was
despair per se. In the course of his Quest, he had been stabbed by a
Morgul-blade, bitten by a giant, and rather venemous spider, and had
his Ring-finger bitten off by Gollum, and those were just the physical
injuries. The Ring, itself, also participated in Frodo's physical,
mental, and spiritual degradation by preying on his mind, and
"weighing" on him. Then, there is the EYE, a source of terror if ever
there was one.

By the time the Ring was destroyed, Frodo was just plain done in, no
strength to spare; which was why he was so accepting of impending
death.

When he got back home, it wasn't despair that plagued him. The
knife-wound by the Morgul-blade, for example, never truly healed.
And, I am somewhat convinced that Shelob's bite also never completely
healed. And, we also have to realize that the Ring, itself, had done
a lot of damage to Frodo. It had a profound mental/spritual/physical
effect on whoever bore it-Gollum is a prime example-but Frodo was
anything but unscathed by it.

The closest modern paralell I can think of isn't despair. It's
Traumatic Stress Syndrome...

Vandevere

Michelle J. Haines

2004-01-19 01:53:30 UTC

Post by Vandevere
The closest modern paralell I can think of isn't despair. It's
Traumatic Stress Syndrome...

That frequently includes a significant amount of despair, although
usually of the suicidal type.

Michelle
Flutist

--
Drift on a river, That flows through my arms
Drift as I'm singing to you
I see you smiling, So peaceful and calm
And holding you, I'm smiling, too
Here in my arms, Safe from all harm
Holding you, I'm smiling, too
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]

loisillon

2004-01-18 22:52:45 UTC

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Another interesting question from that discussion of Letter 246 about
Frodo's guilt at not destroying the Ring.
When Frodo and Sam are in Sammath Naur after the Ring has been
destroyed, Frodo is quite spent and resigned to his fate. It is Sam who
has to encourage him to get up and move outside. Even then, Frodo's
words make clear that he believes the end has come.
On the other hand, Sam still searches the sky for signs of rescue.
The question is whether Frodo's despair is a bad thing (as say, compared
to Denethor's despair)? Despair is meant to be a bad thing in Tolkien's
world, or so I recall, but can it ever be justified?
Leading on from that, does Frodo's despair and being resigned to death
have any impact on his inability to reintegrate into the Shire,
eventually contributing to his desire to sail West and be healed?
Conversely, does Sam's refusal to despair, help him regain a normal
life?
I think despair does play a major role. What do others think?
Christopher

Resignation in Frodo's mind, ok. But why despair ? It is another
thing.
Of course, Frodo did ont throw himself the One Ring, but Gollum did
it, by fate. That event was predicted in a certain way by Gandalf in
FOTR, as soon as he explained to Frodon who was Gollum. The spirit of
Frodon is in subjection to destiny. But it is the spirit of the whole
LOTR, too.

Shanahan

2004-01-19 01:18:56 UTC

Post by loisillon
Resignation in Frodo's mind, ok. But why despair ? It is another
thing.
Of course, Frodo did not throw himself the One Ring, but Gollum did
it, by fate. That event was predicted in a certain way by Gandalf in
FOTR, as soon as he explained to Frodon who was Gollum. The spirit of
Frodon is in subjection to destiny. But it is the spirit of the whole
LOTR, too.

I'm not so sure about this being the spirit of the entire book. At least,
not the whole spirit. I think that 'fate' or 'destiny' is in tension and
changing balance with redemption or 'eucatastrophe', and that's one of the
great strengths of the book. One thing that makes Tolkien's work so
beautiful.

loisillon

2004-01-19 21:54:22 UTC

Post by Shanahan

Nevertheless, I have to correct the following point. At some moment on
Mount Doom, Frodo says something as "the hope does not succeed." But
it seems that it is especially about their personal fate, and about
any reasonable hope to go home. He speaks about "the end of all
things". But does it really believe like Sam that they are at the end
of the world?

kitznegari thinks it has wings

2004-01-19 00:16:40 UTC

i'm not sure how relevant other people will see it to be, but after seeing the
last matrix movie, i sort of questioned it all myself too.

agent smith asked in the last fight scene why neo kept on fighting... basically
a "we can go on like this forever" thing. and it was the truth. neo had lost
his identity, the person that he loved, his vision, his passage home, he lost
everything... but here he was still hammering away to continue... WHY?! so he
stopped.

i'm not sure what the real meaning of that part of the film was... and i
honestly think that i am probably wrong about it, but it said to me that
sometimes NOT fighting anymore is the solution. sometimes losing is the only
way to win. that's why the audiences, for the most part, left feeling so
dissatisfied and confused. people want to see a struggle to survive that ends
in victory. i'm glad that this one was different. it was a better reflection
of what i believe is real... a better reflection of my own philosophies.

but in LOTR, i don't know. it was okay for frodo, i think, to wish for the
end, to give up hope. he'd lost everything, and now even his purpose was gone.
sam, on the other hand, was full of love... that was his entire purpose of
being was to love frodo as his friend... everything he did was about that.
frodo was the technical portion of the tale, the one that accomplished the
feat. sam was the beauty... the dreamer. one the technical part of the story
had ended... once the "telling of the story" was pretty much over, the beauty
had to take over to bring it all back to where it should be... well, mostly.
he tried his hardest, anyway.

- k i t z -
i will take you to the oracle, but first i must aporogize.
http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

Glenn Holliday

2004-01-19 03:22:25 UTC

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The question is whether Frodo's despair is a bad thing (as say, compared
to Denethor's despair)? Despair is meant to be a bad thing in Tolkien's
world, or so I recall, but can it ever be justified?

I do believe Tolkien intended to contrast Frodo and Denethor
when each (mistakenly) believed he had come to the end of things.
Denethor makes a melodramatic gesture, choosing death
(for both himself and Faramir). Frodo, on the other hand,
has spent himself in sacrifice to his quest, and now resigns
himself to inevitable death.

I think this is another place where Tolkien was thinking
(among other things) theological thoughts. Frodo is
preparing for what Catholic tradition describes as a
good death. Denethor shows how the sin of despair leads
to an evil death.

--
Glenn Holliday ***@acm.org

timananda

2004-01-19 04:31:11 UTC

Post by Glenn Holliday

I do believe Tolkien intended to contrast Frodo and Denethor
when each (mistakenly) believed he had come to the end of things.
Denethor makes a melodramatic gesture, choosing death
(for both himself and Faramir). Frodo, on the other hand,
has spent himself in sacrifice to his quest, and now resigns
himself to inevitable death.
I think this is another place where Tolkien was thinking
(among other things) theological thoughts. Frodo is
preparing for what Catholic tradition describes as a
good death. Denethor shows how the sin of despair leads
to an evil death.

Yes, Frodo was resigned to that fate, but I'm very surprised that so many
people talk about Denethor thinking this or that, and did this for that
reason. No-one has yet to say any argument that will dissuade me from the
fact that Denethor was driven insane by Sauron via the palantir. If the
palantir could corrupt Saruman, what effect on a mere mortal.

Tim

kitznegari thinks it has wings

2004-01-19 05:08:23 UTC

Post by timananda
No-one has yet to say any argument that will dissuade me from the
fact that Denethor was driven insane by Sauron via the palantir. If the
palantir could corrupt Saruman, what effect on a mere mortal.
Tim

so he was posessed too, huh?

- k i t z -
i will take you to the oracle, but first i must aporogize.
bite me at: http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=kitznegari

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-19 05:54:36 UTC

Post by timananda
Yes, Frodo was resigned to that fate, but I'm very surprised that so many
people talk about Denethor thinking this or that, and did this for that
reason. No-one has yet to say any argument that will dissuade me from the
fact that Denethor was driven insane by Sauron via the palantir. If the
palantir could corrupt Saruman, what effect on a mere mortal.

If you mean that Sauron used some sort of spell via the Palantir to
drive Denethor mad, then I'll have to disagree. Nor would I agree that
Denethor was corrupted. Tolkien makes it very clear in UT that this
wasn't the case -- he remained true to Gondor. Denethor's despair, and
subsequent madness came about from an overwhelming love for Gondor,
whose downfall, he was led to believe, was imminent. This, along with
the perceived death of his second son. Sauron perhaps helped him along
this path by revealing his overwhelming might to Denethor, but Sauron
didn't control everything Denethor saw with the Palantir.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

timananda

2004-01-19 10:45:00 UTC

Organization: RoadRunner
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 05:54:36 GMT
Subject: Denethor's Despair (Re: Frodo's despair on Mount Doom)

Post by timananda
Yes, Frodo was resigned to that fate, but I'm very surprised that so

many

Post by timananda
people talk about Denethor thinking this or that, and did this for

that

Post by timananda
reason. No-one has yet to say any argument that will dissuade me from

the

Post by timananda
fact that Denethor was driven insane by Sauron via the palantir. If

the

Post by timananda
palantir could corrupt Saruman, what effect on a mere mortal.

But that doesn't discount my point. Certainly he remained true to Gondor,
but the downfall he thought was imminent, apart from the advancing hoardes,
was also Aragorn and the end of his stewardship. No matter how true he was,
Sauron still played him like a fiddle, and 100% sent him mad.

My point being that there's already a precedent in this regard with Saruman,
a venerated wizard, not a mere human.

Tim

Troels Forchhammer

2004-01-19 14:29:51 UTC

in <BC32005C.49C99%***@optushome.com.au>,
timananda <***@optushome.com.au> enriched us with:
<snip>

Post by timananda
My point being that there's already a precedent in this regard with
Saruman, a venerated wizard, not a mere human.

Tolkien makes it quite clear in UT 4, III, 'The Palantíri' Denethor fell
into dispair due to his conviction that Sauron's victory (and thereby the
Fall of Gondor) was inevitable:

"It may noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell
under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no
longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his
rejection Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was
inevitable, and so fell into despair."

So I guess one could say that Sauron in some ways were the cause of
Denethor's madness, but not as directly as it is my impression that you
suggest.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-19 14:42:59 UTC

Post by timananda
But that doesn't discount my point. Certainly he remained true to Gondor,
but the downfall he thought was imminent, apart from the advancing hoardes,
was also Aragorn and the end of his stewardship. No matter how true he was,
Sauron still played him like a fiddle, and 100% sent him mad.
My point being that there's already a precedent in this regard with Saruman,
a venerated wizard, not a mere human.

The seed for Saruman's corruption began almost two thousand years prior
when he first learned that Gandalf had been given Narya, and begrudged
it. We can't blame his entire downfall on Sauron.

And Denethor was a "mere human" in whom the blood of Numenor ran almost
true. Denethor would have found the Palantir more amenable to his use
than Saruman or even Sauron, being a rightful user. Are you saying that
*any* human who used the Palantir would have been driven mad by Sauron?
I don't think so. I think Aragorn could have continued to use it without
the same consequences. Certainly Sauron played on Denethor's pride and
his 'Gondorcentric' ego, and I don't think he would have despaired had
he not had these personality traits. But I think stating Sauron was 100%
responsible is an overstatement.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Graeme

2004-01-19 14:58:05 UTC

The seed for Saruman's corruption began almost two thousand years prior when

he first learned that Gandalf had been given Narya, and begrudged it. We can't
blame his entire downfall on Sauron.
I don't think we can blame it on that any more than we can say that Gandalf set
off on the road to destruction with his insults of Pippin. They're good guys
but not robots. They're going to have personality conflicts from time to time,
and it won't necessarily mean anything serious.

And Denethor was a "mere human" in whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true.

Denethor would have found the Palantir more amenable to his use than Saruman or
even Sauron, being a rightful user.

Are you saying that *any* human who used the Palantir would have been driven

mad by Sauron? I don't think so. I think Aragorn could have continued to use
it without the same consequences.
Aragorn knew about the quest of the ring, and so had reason to hope. So yes,
maybe he could have. But if he could somehow be fed a steady diet of
hopelessness, who knows what he would have done?

Certainly Sauron played on Denethor's pride and his 'Gondorcentric' ego, and

I don't think he would have despaired had he not had these personality traits.
But I think stating Sauron was 100% responsible is an overstatement.
That's true.

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-19 15:29:52 UTC

[Please include attributes to your quoted material]

Post by Graeme

The seed for Saruman's corruption began almost two thousand years prior when

I'm not sure what insults you're referring to. But then Gandalf and
Saruman are very different people.

They're good guys

Post by Graeme
but not robots. They're going to have personality conflicts from time to time,
and it won't necessarily mean anything serious.

Except that Tolkien says that Saruman's ill-will that he bore towards
Gandalf was significant, and "later became manifest" UT 'The Istari'

Post by Graeme

And Denethor was a "mere human" in whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true.

Denethor would have found the Palantir more amenable to his use than Saruman or
even Sauron, being a rightful user.

Are you saying that *any* human who used the Palantir would have been driven

mad by Sauron? I don't think so. I think Aragorn could have continued to use
it without the same consequences.
Aragorn knew about the quest of the ring, and so had reason to hope.

Huh? Denethor also knew about the quest. His view was that it was
foolhardy, and that the Ring should have been brought to Minas Tirith.

So yes,

Post by Graeme
maybe he could have. But if he could somehow be fed a steady diet of
hopelessness, who knows what he would have done?

My point is that Denethor was *not* "fed a steady diet of
hopelessness". He didn't only see what Sauron allowed him to see.

"In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against
Sauron himself, by the fact that the Stones were far moreamenable to
legitimate usere: most of all to true 'Heirs of Elendil' (as Aragorn),
but also to one with inherited authority (as Denethor)..."

"..the Anor-stone was his *by right*, and nothing but expediency was
against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have guessed the
Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked contact with it, trusting his
strength. His trust was not entirly unjustified. Sauron failed to
dominate him and could only influence him by deceits.... Whether he ever
thus made contact with the Orthanc-stone and Saruman is not told;
probably he did, and did so with profit to himself. Sauron could not
break in on these conferences..." UT 'The Palantiri'

To use the robot analogy you used above, Denethor was not one. Yes a
robot could be played like a fiddle, but humans have free will, as well
as personality strengths and weaknesses. It was Denethors overwhelming
pride that Sauron played on. But it was the final despair of believing
Faramir was dying that drove him to madness. Had this been Aragorn in
the same seat, I think things would have gone quite differently.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Graeme

2004-01-19 20:38:24 UTC

Post by Bill O'Meally
Except that Tolkien says that Saruman's ill-will that he bore towards
Gandalf was significant, and "later became manifest" UT 'The Istari'

With 20/20 hindsight, maybe it was. Similarly, if Gandalf had turned
evil, little things like the way he treated Pippin would be
re-examined in an attempt to find the root. If Gandalf had turned
evil, everybody would be saying how he'd always had something of a
tendency to short-temperedness in times of stress.

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Bill O'Meally
Huh? Denethor also knew about the quest. His view was that it was

foolhardy, and that the Ring should have been brought to Minas Tirith.

Yes, but he found out about it only at the end. He may have been
watching Sauron's armies in his palantir for years, thinking that
there was no hope. By the time he found out about the Quest of the
Ring, it may have been too late for him to change his mind. Or maybe
he was just temperamentally different from Aragorn. Upholding Gondor
is something that's occupied his every waking moment for years. For
Aragorn, that was just something he'd probably have to start doing at
some time in the future.

Post by Bill O'Meally
My point is that Denethor was *not* "fed a steady diet of
hopelessness". He didn't only see what Sauron allowed him to see.

Yes, but he saw enough to realize that the military situation was
hopeless, and he saw that for a long time.

Post by Bill O'Meally
"In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against
Sauron himself, by the fact that the Stones were far moreamenable to
legitimate usere: most of all to true 'Heirs of Elendil' (as Aragorn),
but also to one with inherited authority (as Denethor)..."

In a sense though, Saruman was a legitimate user also. He had the
proper authority to be in Isengard, granted by its Steward, and
possession and use of the palantir went with that. Beren didn't have
the palantir removed before giving Saruman the keys to the tower.
Apparently he wanted Saruman to have access to it. If I were Saruman,
a bestowal like that would more than make up for Gandalf having gotten
Narya.

The whole question of "right" is an interesting one. The palantiri
belonged to Gondor, Denethor was the Steward, and Saruman was using
his with the nominal permission of Denethor, the true caretaker of the
stone. Aragorn, though he had assumed no authority in Gondor still
had the authority to use the Stone. Apparently the magic of the
palantiri included an online legal dictionary, and the power to make
judgments about who is and isn't entitled, on the spot.

Post by Bill O'Meally
To use the robot analogy you used above, Denethor was not one. Yes a
robot could be played like a fiddle, but humans have free will, as well
as personality strengths and weaknesses. It was Denethors overwhelming
pride that Sauron played on. But it was the final despair of believing
Faramir was dying that drove him to madness. Had this been Aragorn in
the same seat, I think things would have gone quite differently.

Denethor certainly took a turn for the worse after Faramir's injury.
It's true, he may not have been certifiably mad before that point.
But even before that, he probably had a decidedly fatalistic mindset,
brought about by years of seeing Sauron's invincible armies in his
stone. Aragorn, though also a legitimate user didn't have the same
mindset or temperament.

It would be interesting to know in what way the illegitimacy of
Sauron's use hampered him.

timananda

2004-01-20 01:19:57 UTC

Organization: RoadRunner
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:42:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Denethor's Despair (Re: Frodo's despair on Mount Doom)

Post by timananda
But that doesn't discount my point. Certainly he remained true to

Gondor,

Post by timananda
but the downfall he thought was imminent, apart from the advancing

hoardes,

Post by timananda
was also Aragorn and the end of his stewardship. No matter how true he

was,

Post by timananda
Sauron still played him like a fiddle, and 100% sent him mad.
My point being that there's already a precedent in this regard with

Saruman,

Post by timananda
a venerated wizard, not a mere human.

The seed for Saruman's corruption began almost two thousand years prior
when he first learned that Gandalf had been given Narya, and begrudged
it. We can't blame his entire downfall on Sauron.

No, but Sauron affected him in a profound way.

And Denethor was a "mere human" in whom the blood of Numenor ran almost
true. Denethor would have found the Palantir more amenable to his use
than Saruman or even Sauron, being a rightful user. Are you saying that
*any* human who used the Palantir would have been driven mad by Sauron?
I don't think so.

Yes, if Sauron so desired it and if it met his ends.

I think Aragorn could have continued to use it without
the same consequences.

Aragorn showed himself to Sauron in the palantir (and scene not in ROTK
movie unfortunately) and if memory serves the book says that this encounter
pushed him to the limit. And he's 100% the real deal!

Certainly Sauron played on Denethor's pride and
his 'Gondorcentric' ego, and I don't think he would have despaired had
he not had these personality traits. But I think stating Sauron was 100%
responsible is an overstatement.

I never said Sauron was responsible for 100% of his madness, but I am
certain that through his interventions, subtle or otherwise, he was
responsible for the madness. I've never felt that he would have been that
mad, whether temporary or not, without such evil.

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-20 05:49:21 UTC

Organization: RoadRunner
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:42:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Denethor's Despair (Re: Frodo's despair on Mount Doom)

Post by timananda
But that doesn't discount my point. Certainly he remained true to

Gondor,

Post by timananda
but the downfall he thought was imminent, apart from the advancing

hoardes,

Post by timananda
was also Aragorn and the end of his stewardship. No matter how true he

was,

Post by timananda
Sauron still played him like a fiddle, and 100% sent him mad.
My point being that there's already a precedent in this regard with

Saruman,

Post by timananda
a venerated wizard, not a mere human.

The seed for Saruman's corruption began almost two thousand years prior
when he first learned that Gandalf had been given Narya, and

begrudged

it. We can't blame his entire downfall on Sauron.

No, but Sauron affected him in a profound way.

Agreed. But not 100%.

Yes, if Sauron so desired it and if it met his ends.

Again, I disagree. See my comments on Aragorn below.

I think Aragorn could have continued to use it without
the same consequences.

I'm not sure what you mean by "100% the real deal." Nevertheless,
Aragorn correctly deemed himself the rightful master of the Stone, and
had the strength to not only daunt Sauron by revealing himself and
Anduril, but then to wrench the Stone to his own will.

I never said Sauron was responsible for 100% of his madness,
No matter how true he was,
Sauron still played him like a fiddle, and 100% sent him mad.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Stan Brown

2004-01-19 18:21:18 UTC

Post by Bill O'Meally
If you mean that Sauron used some sort of spell via the Palantir to
drive Denethor mad, then I'll have to disagree. Nor would I agree that
Denethor was corrupted. Tolkien makes it very clear in UT that this
wasn't the case -- he remained true to Gondor.

True -- however "being true to Gondor" was not the highest good, not
as Denethor pursued it anyway. Denethor looked at Sauron as ruler of
a rival realm, not as an evil to be put down for the good of the
world. Denethor was less "corrupted" than say Saruman only in so far
as he felt he was serving his country and not just himself.

(Letter 183: "Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his
failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime
motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another
potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and
opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and
wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not
distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had
survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have
taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms
and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south
would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a ?political?
leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.")

Post by Bill O'Meally
Denethor's despair, and
subsequent madness came about from an overwhelming love for Gondor,
whose downfall, he was led to believe, was imminent. This, along with
the perceived death of his second son.

Not just his second son, but the actual death of his first,
confirmed only when Pippin arrived in Minas Tirith. I think this
meant the end of Denethor's house; the next heir to the Stewards
would have been Imrahil of Dol Amroth.

Post by Bill O'Meally
Sauron perhaps helped him along
this path by revealing his overwhelming might to Denethor, but Sauron
didn't control everything Denethor saw with the Palantir.

I think Sauron _did_ control what Denethor saw; Tolkien tells
unmistakably that he _could_. (There is no question, I hope, that
Denethor was a "weaker mind" relative to Sauron. The "maybe" in the
following quote seems like a mere rhetorical flourish, though I
could be wrong.) I think perhaps Denethor did not so much go insane
as have a nervous breakdown. Worn out by his labors, seeing nothing
but defeat and death, he snapped and decided to commit suicide.

But the one truly wicked act, which nothing can explain away, was
his attempt to murder Faramir. Even if Denethor knew beyond a shadow
of doubt that Faramir would not recover -- and how could he know
such a thing -- even then there is no way to justify burning him
alive.

LotR V 9, "The Last Debate": "The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and
not even the Lord of Barad-dûr can make them do so. He can, maybe,
by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or
cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see. Nonetheless it
cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw great forces arrayed
against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered, he saw that
which truly is."

Troels Forchhammer

2004-01-19 22:51:10 UTC

Snipping points I agree with

Sauron perhaps helped him along this path by revealing his overwhelming
might to Denethor, but Sauron didn't control everything Denethor saw
with the Palantir.

I think Sauron _did_ control what Denethor saw; Tolkien tells
unmistakably that he _could_.

I agree that Sauron most likely could control what Denethor saw, but
not, I think, all the time. The section on the Palantíri in UT goes
into much detail about Denethor's use of the Palantir.

[UT 4, III, 'The Palantíri']
" The breaking strain of Denethor's confrontation of Sauron
must be distinguished from the general strain of using the
Stone.[13] The latter Denethor thought that he could endure
(and not without reason); confrontation with Sauron almost
certainly did not occur for many years, and was probably never
originally contemplated by Denethor.
[...]
and even after Sauron became aware of his operations he could
still do so, as long as he retained the strength to control
his Stone to his own purposes, in spite of Sauron's attempt to
"wrench" the Anor-stone always towards himself.
[goes on to tell that the Ithil stone wasn't always in use]
In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even
against Sauron himself, by the fact the Stones were far more
amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true "Heirs of
Elendil" (as Aragorn), but also to one with inherited
authority(as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron.
[...]
Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained
the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the
(apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was
proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved
Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny
to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place
the Anor-stone was his by right, and nothing but expediency
was against his use of it in his grave anxieties. He must have
guessed that the Ithil-stone was in evil hands, and risked
contact with it, trusting his strength. His trust was not
entirely unjustified. Sauron failed to dominate him and could
only influence him by deceits.
[13] The use of the palantíri was a mental strain, especially
on men of later days not trained to the task,
[...] {Author's note.}

This suggests to me that while Sauron was able to deceive Denethor, he
could not always wrest control of the Palantir from Denethor (the part
about "as long as he retained ... towards himself").

Furthermore there were times when Sauron was not watching the Ithil
stone, and at these times he couldn't control what Denethor saw.

Post by Stan Brown
I think perhaps Denethor did not so much go insane as have a nervous
breakdown. Worn out by his labors, seeing nothing but defeat and
death, he snapped and decided to commit suicide.

Tolkien has Gandalf describe Denethor's condition as 'madness' - I'm not
entirely sure what the connotations of this is in comparison with
insanity, but my impression is that 'a madness' is a more temporary
thing than insanity - of quite short duration (days or weeks at most).

Anyway my impression is that a nervous breakdown due to despair fits
the case better.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-20 06:21:01 UTC

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Snipping points I agree with

Sauron perhaps helped him along this path by revealing his

overwhelming

Post by Troels Forchhammer

might to Denethor, but Sauron didn't control everything Denethor saw
with the Palantir.

I think Sauron _did_ control what Denethor saw; Tolkien tells
unmistakably that he _could_.

I agree that Sauron most likely could control what Denethor saw, but
not, I think, all the time. The section on the Palantíri in UT goes
into much detail about Denethor's use of the Palantir.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
This suggests to me that while Sauron was able to deceive Denethor, he
could not always wrest control of the Palantir from Denethor (the part
about "as long as he retained ... towards himself").
Furthermore there were times when Sauron was not watching the Ithil
stone, and at these times he couldn't control what Denethor saw.

Excellent points.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

To use psychiatric terminology, which I think is much more clear than
such terms as 'insane', 'nervous breakdown' and 'madness', I'd say
Denethor suffered either from major depressive disorder or adjustment
disorder, with suicidal ideation. He may have had some psychotic
featuers, but I don't think so. He was neither hallucinating, nor
delusional. He really saw the Black Fleet, and perhaps as Conrad
suggests convincingly, the capture of Frodo and the failure of the
quest.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Anyway my impression is that a nervous breakdown due to despair fits
the case better.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Bill O'Meally

2004-01-20 06:09:20 UTC

But that "corruption" was not the result of Sauron, but rather
Denethor's own personality and world view. Granted, I think Sauron
played on this.

I wasn't trying to imply birth-order. :-) By 'second' I meant he was
facing the second death of a son.

Post by Bill O'Meally
Sauron perhaps helped him along
this path by revealing his overwhelming might to Denethor, but Sauron
didn't control everything Denethor saw with the Palantir.

I think Sauron _did_ control what Denethor saw; Tolkien tells
unmistakably that he _could_. (There is no question, I hope, that
Denethor was a "weaker mind" relative to Sauron.

Perhaps a weaker mind in comparing a Maia to a Man, but this doesn't
mean that Sauron would have more control over the Palantir than Denethor
. Tolkien makes this clear in 'The Palantiri' essay, quoted elsewhere in
this thread.

The "maybe" in the

Post by Stan Brown
following quote seems like a mere rhetorical flourish, though I
could be wrong.) I think perhaps Denethor did not so much go insane
as have a nervous breakdown. Worn out by his labors, seeing nothing
but defeat and death, he snapped and decided to commit suicide.

Ok, I'm not sure what you mean by not going insane vs. having a nervous
breakdown. Neither terms are in the DSM-IV :-).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

I think you mean he wasn't psychotic as much as severely depressed. I
agree.

Post by Stan Brown
But the one truly wicked act, which nothing can explain away, was
his attempt to murder Faramir. Even if Denethor knew beyond a shadow
of doubt that Faramir would not recover -- and how could he know
such a thing -- even then there is no way to justify burning him
alive.
LotR V 9, "The Last Debate": "The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and
not even the Lord of Barad-dûr can make them do so. He can, maybe,
by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or
cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see. Nonetheless it
cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw great forces arrayed
against him in Mordor, and more still being gathered, he saw that
which truly is."

I think we're in agreement that Sauron played on Denethor's obsession
with Gondor, and in seeing the overwhelming odds against him, in
addition to the (percieved) death of his heirs and children (whom he
clearly loved in his own way), was driven to despair.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

Igenlode Wordsmith

2004-01-20 23:02:45 UTC

On 19 Jan 2004 Stan Brown wrote:
[snip]

Perhaps I should declare an interest here (if defending the Kinslaying
over the burning at Losgar has not already set me beyond the pale!)
One of the sentiments from Tolkien that has always spoken most strongly
to me - despite the fact that Tolkien himself disowns it - comes from
this scene: "If doom denies this to me, then I will have *naught*"...

He knows Faramir to be "on the threshold of death" - for which, and for
a pessimistic prognosis, we have none other than the word of Gandalf -
and believes the City to be doomed to fall. Where the fire-fixation
comes from we don't know; a combination of Faramir's fever and the
uncontrollable burning of the outer circles, I suppose.

Under the circumstances, he finds it preferable to die by his own hand
rather than at the mercy of the Enemy, and he makes the same choice for
Faramir: that they should die together rather than apart, and by the
will of Denethor (who loves his son) rather than by that of Sauron or
his captains. Depriving the Enemy of that at least, like Boadicea of
the Iceni, who died with her daughters by her own hand when the battle
against the Romans was lost. Gandalf qualifies it as murder (and he is
deliberately speaking to shock); I suspect Denethor, in his despair,
regards it as a mercy.

(I hadn't realised before re-reading this section that Denethor
actually has a knife as well as his sword and apparently purposes to
use it on Faramir. But he chooses not to use it on himself, at the end.
Even in insanity, the degree of will-power that must have taken is
frightening to comprehend...)

--
Igenlode <***@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire

Those who falter and those who fall must pay the price...

Rich Carreiro

2004-01-19 19:50:18 UTC

Post by Bill O'Meally
wasn't the case -- he remained true to Gondor. Denethor's despair, and
subsequent madness came about from an overwhelming love for Gondor,
whose downfall, he was led to believe, was imminent.

Yes. Remember that the despair didn't really super kick in until
Denethor did his palantir session the night before the big battle.
While not completely explicitly said, it's pretty clear that he
saw/percived that Frodo had been captured and stripped. So he
believed that Sauron was getting the Ring back.

--
Rich Carreiro ***@animato.arlington.ma.us

Gary E. Masters

2004-01-23 11:42:31 UTC

Post by Rich Carreiro

I agree. The change was significant.

Flora Foxburr

2004-01-21 08:03:43 UTC