How many palantiri did Mordor have?

[Steve Morrison]

So I noticed something odd the last time I read through LotR. When
Gandalf is explaining the palantíri to Pippin, he says this:

‘Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie,
buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have
obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the
Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it
into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.

which clearly favors the hypothesis that Mordor has only one
palantír, the Ithil-stone. But when Sam overhears a conversation
between Shagrat and Gorbag, we get this (spoken by Gorbag):

‘No, I don’t know,’ said Gorbag’s voice. ‘The messages go
through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I
don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl
give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as
look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other
side. But He likes ’em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so
it’s no use grumbling. I tell you, it’s no game serving down
in the city.’

We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír. But that seems to imply that they each have
one, and so presumably the Ithil-stone remains at Minas Morgul. If
they have two, where did Sauron get his palantír? Or, do they only
have one? Perhaps someone in Minas Morgul is putting up messages on
some large, well-lit board somewhere, and Sauron periodically
surveys it with his palantír? Thoughts, anyone?

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Steve Morrison
So I noticed something odd the last time I read through LotR. When
‘Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie,
buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have
obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the
Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it
into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.

It's hard to know just how much about the fates of the Palantíri
Gandalf knows at this point. I think it likely he at least knew about
the three Northern stones, or at least the two of which were lost when
Arvedui's ship went down. One would think he'd also be privy to the
knowledge that the third was held in the Tower Hills

Post by Steve Morrison
which clearly favors the hypothesis that Mordor has only one
palantír, the Ithil-stone. But when Sam overhears a conversation
‘No, I don’t know,’ said Gorbag’s voice. ‘The messages go
through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I
don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl
give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as
look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other
side. But He likes ’em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so
it’s no use grumbling. I tell you, it’s no game serving down
in the city.’
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír.

I'm not sure if Tolkien originally meant for there to be Palantíri at
Minas Morgul as well as Barad-dûr, and this conversation did not get
altered, or if S&G are referring to some other form of communication
which they don't understand.

Post by Steve Morrison
But that seems to imply that they each have
one, and so presumably the Ithil-stone remains at Minas Morgul. If
they have two, where did Sauron get his palantír? Or, do they only
have one? Perhaps someone in Minas Morgul is putting up messages on
some large, well-lit board somewhere, and Sauron periodically
surveys it with his palantír? Thoughts, anyone?

Sauron certainly has the Ithil Stone at Barad-dûr, as described in UT.
The Stone at Osgiliath fell into Anduin during the Kin Strife and was
lost, Denethor had the Anor stone, and Saruman had the Orthanc Stone.
That accounts for all of them.

But there seems to be some other sort of communication between the Dark
Tower and Minas Ithil as described in "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol":

"Then with a searing suddenness there came a great red flash. Far
beyond the eastern mountains it leaped into the sky and splashed the
lowering clouds with crimson..."

Could just be Orodruin erupting, but the next passage makes it sound
like it was some sort of signal to start the war:

"And Minas Morgul answered. There was a flare of livid lightnings:
forks of blue flame springing up from the tower and from the encircling
hills into the sullen clouds. The earth groaned; and out of the city
there came a cry. Mingled with harsh high voices as of birds of prey,
and the shrill neighing of horses wild with rage and fear, there came a
rending screech, shivering, rising swiftly to a piercing pitch beyond
the range of hearing..."

Upon which the host of Ithil march out on their assault.

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally
I'm not sure if Tolkien originally meant for there to be Palantíri at
Minas Morgul as well as Barad-dûr, and this conversation did not get
altered, or if S&G are referring to some other form of communication
which they don't understand.

Frodo was able to sense that Sauron was looking for him, and the closer
he got to Mordor, the more visible he felt. He was afraid to put on the
Ring because he felt that Sauron would be able to see him. And when he
put the Ring on and claimed it for his own in Orodruin, Sauron instantly
was able to perceive his thoughts. It seems likely that after their
long years of domination by their own rings the thoughts of the Nazgûl
would be open to Sauron and that he would be able to make his thoughts
known to them as well, especially when they were near Mordor.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Wayne Brown

Post by Bill O'Meally
I'm not sure if Tolkien originally meant for there to be Palantíri at
Minas Morgul as well as Barad-dûr, and this conversation did not get
altered, or if S&G are referring to some other form of communication
which they don't understand.

Frodo was able to sense that Sauron was looking for him, and the closer
he got to Mordor, the more visible he felt. He was afraid to put on the
Ring because he felt that Sauron would be able to see him. And when he
put the Ring on and claimed it for his own in Orodruin, Sauron instantly
was able to perceive his thoughts. It seems likely that after their
long years of domination by their own rings the thoughts of the Nazgûl
would be open to Sauron and that he would be able to make his thoughts
known to them as well, especially when they were near Mordor.

I think you raise a sound point.

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Wayne Brown

Post by Bill O'Meally
I'm not sure if Tolkien originally meant for there to be Palantíri at
Minas Morgul as well as Barad-dûr, and this conversation did not get
altered, or if S&G are referring to some other form of communication
which they don't understand.

Frodo was able to sense that Sauron was looking for him, and the closer
he got to Mordor, the more visible he felt. He was afraid to put on the
Ring because he felt that Sauron would be able to see him. And when he
put the Ring on and claimed it for his own in Orodruin, Sauron instantly
was able to perceive his thoughts. It seems likely that after their
long years of domination by their own rings the thoughts of the Nazgûl
would be open to Sauron and that he would be able to make his thoughts
known to them as well, especially when they were near Mordor.

I think you raise a sound point.

Thanks. There are so many people here who are so much more knowledgeable
on these matters than I that I like to think I've figured something out
now and then. :-)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Steve Morrison
So I noticed something odd the last time I read through LotR. When
?Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie,
buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have
obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the
Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it
into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.

Tolkien explains in a letter somewhere that when Gandalf says "I
guess" that Gollum had the One Ring, what he really means is "I
deduce". I don't think there's any doubt that Sauron's Palantír was
the one from Minas Ithil.

We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not sure
what happened to the one at Weathertop.

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír.

No, I don't think so. In my opinion we are meant to understand that
Sauron and his chief slaves, the Nazgûl, communicated by some means
unavailable to lesser servants. I think Tolkien's essay Osanwe-kenta
explains it: it was what we would call telepathy.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not sure
what happened to the one at Weathertop.

IIRC, Arvedui had both the stones from Fornost and Amon Sûl on his ship
when it went down in the Ice Bay of Forochel.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not sure
what happened to the one at Weathertop.

IIRC, Arvedui had both the stones from Fornost and Amon Sûl on his ship
when it went down in the Ice Bay of Forochel.

Ah, here it is. From LotR Appendix A:

[Regarding Arvedui's ship being crushed by the ice and foundering in
the Ice Bay of Forochel]

"So perished Arvedui Last-king, and with him the palantíri were buried
in the sea."

And in a footnote:

"These were the Stones of Annúminas and Amon Sûl. The only Stone left
in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks towards
the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never
see it, it remained there, until Círdan put it aboard Elrond's ship
when he left. But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in
accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so
that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the
vanished West; but the bent sea below covered Númenor for ever."

It's presence and location was therefore well known to the Wise. I
strongly suspect that Gandalf would have been privy to this information.

[Sandman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not sure
what happened to the one at Weathertop.

IIRC, Arvedui had both the stones from Fornost and Amon Sûl on his ship
when it went down in the Ice Bay of Forochel.

[Regarding Arvedui's ship being crushed by the ice and foundering in
the Ice Bay of Forochel]
"So perished Arvedui Last-king, and with him the palantíri were buried
in the sea."
"These were the Stones of Annúminas and Amon Sûl. The only Stone left
in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks towards
the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never
see it, it remained there, until Círdan put it aboard Elrond's ship
when he left. But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in
accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so
that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the
vanished West; but the bent sea below covered Númenor for ever."
It's presence and location was therefore well known to the Wise. I
strongly suspect that Gandalf would have been privy to this information.

Of course, Gandalf only expresses uncertainty about the faith of the
stones of Gondor (lost in Anduin) and Anor (used by Denethor).

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally
"These were the Stones of Annúminas and Amon Sûl. The only Stone left
in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks towards
the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never
see it, it remained there, until Círdan put it aboard Elrond's ship
when he left. But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in
accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so
that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the
vanished West; but the bent sea below covered Númenor for ever."

Thanks, Bill. It's a while since I've read Appendix A.

Interesting that they put a palantír that could see only Eressëa,
onto a ship bound for Eressëa. That seems kind of redundant. (Also it
was rather hard luck on Círdan.)

Unless they were planing to use it for NSA-type activities, spying on
the citizenry. :-)

[Paul S. Person]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2014 06:58:33 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Bill O'Meally
"These were the Stones of Annúminas and Amon Sûl. The only Stone left
in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks towards
the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never
see it, it remained there, until Círdan put it aboard Elrond's ship
when he left. But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in
accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so
that he could look back with 'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the
vanished West; but the bent sea below covered Númenor for ever."

Thanks, Bill. It's a while since I've read Appendix A.
Interesting that they put a palantír that could see only Eressëa,
onto a ship bound for Eressëa. That seems kind of redundant. (Also it
was rather hard luck on Círdan.)
Unless they were planing to use it for NSA-type activities, spying on
the citizenry. :-)

More likely they were just removing all awareness of the True West
from Middle Earth.

Although why Cirdan didn't take it himself, on the last ship with Sam,
IIRC, is a good question.

Perhaps, in some obscure, Elvish fashion, it belonged to Elrond, and
Cirdan merely had it on loan.

[Julian Bradfield]

Post by Stan Brown
No, I don't think so. In my opinion we are meant to understand that
Sauron and his chief slaves, the Nazgûl, communicated by some means
unavailable to lesser servants. I think Tolkien's essay Osanwe-kenta
explains it: it was what we would call telepathy.

Indeed. They were in flight when they heard the "sudden terrible call
out of the Dark Tower", and I don't suppose Angmar's mount came
equipped with a palantír holder.

[Sandman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
So I noticed something odd the last time I read through LotR. When
?Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie,
buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have
obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the
Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it
into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.

Tolkien explains in a letter somewhere that when Gandalf says "I
guess" that Gollum had the One Ring, what he really means is "I
deduce". I don't think there's any doubt that Sauron's Palantír was
the one from Minas Ithil.
We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not sure
what happened to the one at Weathertop.

Same faith, both were on the same ship. The Weathertop palantir was taken
to Fornost when the tower was destroyed by the Witch King. They both rest
at the bottom of the Icebay of Forochel.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír.

No, I don't think so. In my opinion we are meant to understand that
Sauron and his chief slaves, the Nazgûl, communicated by some means
unavailable to lesser servants. I think Tolkien's essay Osanwe-kenta
explains it: it was what we would call telepathy.

Most probably, yes.

That said, the one ring was found after having been lost in the Anduin, so
it's not impossible that the master stone of Osgiliath, also lost in
Anduin, had been found as well.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Sandman

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
So I noticed something odd the last time I read through LotR. When
?Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie,
buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have
obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the
Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it
into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.

Tolkien explains in a letter somewhere that when Gandalf says "I
guess" that Gollum had the One Ring, what he really means is "I
deduce". I don't think there's any doubt that Sauron's Palantír was
the one from Minas Ithil.
We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not sure
what happened to the one at Weathertop.

Same faith, both were on the same ship.

Faith??? Did you mean "fate"?

[Sandman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Sandman

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
So I noticed something odd the last time I read through LotR.
When Gandalf is explaining the palant�ri to Pippin, he says
?Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie,
buried, or drowned deep? But one at least Sauron must have
obtained and mastered to his purposes. I guess that it was the
Ithil-stone, for he took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it
into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.

Tolkien explains in a letter somewhere that when Gandalf says "I
guess" that Gollum had the One Ring, what he really means is "I
deduce". I don't think there's any doubt that Sauron's Palant�r
was the one from Minas Ithil.
We do know that the one from Fornost was lost at sea. I'm not
sure what happened to the one at Weathertop.

Same faith, both were on the same ship.

Faith??? Did you mean "fate"?

Haha, oops :)

[Sandman]

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír. But that seems to imply that they each
have one, and so presumably the Ithil-stone remains at Minas Morgul.
If they have two, where did Sauron get his palantír? Or, do they
only have one? Perhaps someone in Minas Morgul is putting up
messages on some large, well-lit board somewhere, and Sauron
periodically surveys it with his palantír? Thoughts, anyone?

While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means", it's not impossible.
Let's look at the data. There were once seven palantir's in Middle Earth.
In the northern kingdom we had the Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and
Annumanias stone. The two latter were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the
Elendil stone sailed to the west at the end of the third age.

In the south kingdome we had the Master stone in Osgiliath, lost in Anduin,
the Orthanc stone, in use by Saruman, the Ithil stone used by Sauron and
lastly the Anor stone, used by Denethor. All accounted for - except the
master stone.

It was lost in Anduin over a thousand years earlier, but it's worth
mentioning that so was once the One Ring, and it was later found. Sure, the
One ring may have a bit more "agency" of its own to *be* found, but 1,500
years is a long time. It's not impossible that the master stone was
recovered at some point.

Now, the master stone of Osgiliath was the largest and most powerful stone,
so it seems highly unlikely that if recovered, Sauron wouldn't use this one
instead of the Ithil stone. But as far as we know, he might have been.

In that case, that would leave the Ithil stone for the nazgul to
communication with their master when out and about.

The stones of Amon Sul and Annuminas had been lost for about a thousand
years when the events in the books took place, and while they were lost in
a more remote place, it's equally possible for them to have been recovered
aswell, however maybe not as likely due to distance and climate.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Sandman
While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means", it's not impossible.
Let's look at the data. There were once seven palantir's in Middle Earth.
In the northern kingdom we had the Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and
Annumanias stone. The two latter were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the
Elendil stone sailed to the west at the end of the third age.

Come to think about it, wasn't the Stone at Emyn Beraid, by right,
Aragorn's? Should that not have come into his inheritance just as the
Orthanc Stone did, "in earnest of other things that shall be given
back."? Why then did Círdan put it on Elrond's ship into the West?

[Sandman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means", it's not
impossible. Let's look at the data. There were once seven
palantir's in Middle Earth. In the northern kingdom we had the
Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and Annumanias stone. The two latter
were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the Elendil stone sailed to the
west at the end of the third age.

Come to think about it, wasn't the Stone at Emyn Beraid, by right,
Aragorn's? Should that not have come into his inheritance just as
the Orthanc Stone did, "in earnest of other things that shall be
given back."? Why then did Cirdan put it on Elrond's ship into the
West?

Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too back this
stone into their own care, and it was never again used by men, which is why
it was on the ship.

Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the stone, but
it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to gace
into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

[Bill O'Meally]

In article

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means", it's not
impossible. Let's look at the data. There were once seven
palantir's in Middle Earth. In the northern kingdom we had the
Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and Annumanias stone. The two latter
were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the Elendil stone sailed to the
west at the end of the third age.

Come to think about it, wasn't the Stone at Emyn Beraid, by right,
Aragorn's? Should that not have come into his inheritance just as
the Orthanc Stone did, "in earnest of other things that shall be
given back."? Why then did Cirdan put it on Elrond's ship into the
West?

Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too back this
stone into their own care, and it was never again used by men, which is why
it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the stone, but
it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to gace
into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

Which begs the question, why did Elves traveling into the West need a
Stone that could only look West?

[No One In Particular]

Post by Bill O'Meally

In article

Which begs the question, why did Elves traveling into the West need a
Stone that could only look West?

To keep it out of harm's way? If it was only useful for "looking west"
then it would not be of any use in maintaining a realm, and could
potentially lead to the same type of downfall that beset Numenor if the
wrong people looked at it and beheld something forbidden.

Brian

[Sandman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means",
it's not impossible. Let's look at the data. There were once
seven palantir's in Middle Earth. In the northern kingdom we
had the Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and Annumanias stone.
The two latter were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the Elendil
stone sailed to the west at the end of the third age.

Come to think about it, wasn't the Stone at Emyn Beraid, by
right, Aragorn's? Should that not have come into his inheritance
just as the Orthanc Stone did, "in earnest of other things that
shall be given back."? Why then did Cirdan put it on Elrond's
ship into the West?

Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too
back this stone into their own care, and it was never again used
by men, which is why it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the
stone, but it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to
the Tower Hill to gace into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

Which begs the question, why did Elves traveling into the West need
a Stone that could only look West?

Well, it's the other way around - Elves travelling west didn't want to
leave behind a stone that could watch upon them :)

[Morgoth's Curse]

Post by Sandman

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means", it's not
impossible. Let's look at the data. There were once seven
palantir's in Middle Earth. In the northern kingdom we had the
Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and Annumanias stone. The two latter
were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the Elendil stone sailed to the
west at the end of the third age.

Come to think about it, wasn't the Stone at Emyn Beraid, by right,
Aragorn's? Should that not have come into his inheritance just as
the Orthanc Stone did, "in earnest of other things that shall be
given back."? Why then did Cirdan put it on Elrond's ship into the
West?

Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too back this
stone into their own care, and it was never again used by men, which is why
it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the stone, but
it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to gace
into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

Do you have a citation for this? I cannot find it anywhere in
Unfinished Tales.

Morgoth's Curse

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Morgoth's Curse

Post by Sandman
Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too back this
stone into their own care, and it was never again used by men, which is why
it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the stone, but
it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to gace
into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

Do you have a citation for this? I cannot find it anywhere in
Unfinished Tales.

There's a footnote in Appendix A in RotK that states Círdan put it
aboard Elrond's ship when he left.

[Morgoth's Curse]

On Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:56:11 -0500, Bill O'Meally

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Morgoth's Curse

Post by Sandman
Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too back this
stone into their own care, and it was never again used by men, which is why
it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the stone, but
it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to gace
into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

Do you have a citation for this? I cannot find it anywhere in
Unfinished Tales.

There's a footnote in Appendix A in RotK that states Círdan put it
aboard Elrond's ship when he left.

I should clarify that I am aware of that footnote. I was
wondering whether Sandman had a specific citation for his assertion
that it was never again used by Men or whether that was his
extrapolation from the text. I did not find any text that
specifically states that the "Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to
gace into it over the sea to the Undying Lands." To the best of my
knowledge, there is no evidence either that the Elves ever used it or
that Men never used it again before Cirdan sent it to Aman on Elrond's
ship. It may be that Aragorn knew of its existence and had looked
into it once or twice, but deemed that there was no better custodian
in Middle-earth than Cirdan. If he was familiar with the lore of the
Palantir, he would have known that it was not in accord with the other
Stones and was therefore effectively useless for his purposes.

Morgoth's Curse

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Morgoth's Curse
I should clarify that I am aware of that footnote. I was
wondering whether Sandman had a specific citation for his assertion
that it was never again used by Men or whether that was his
extrapolation from the text. I did not find any text that
specifically states that the "Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to
gace into it over the sea to the Undying Lands."

Oh. I was under the impression that Sandman was referring to the Stone
passing into the West as the reason no Man ever looked at it again.
Upon re-reading his quote, I'm not sure if that is what he is referring
to at all. 'The Palantíri' in UT only states definitively that Elendil
used the Stone to gaze into the West. It goes on to say it is not clear
if *any* man, including Aragorn, ever looked into it after that.

To the best of my

Post by Morgoth's Curse
knowledge, there is no evidence either that the Elves ever used it or
that Men never used it again before Cirdan sent it to Aman on Elrond's
ship.

Yup. The footnote from RotK that I referenced merely states that the
Elves guarded it. No mention of them using it, much less making
pilgrimages to peer into it.

Post by Morgoth's Curse
It may be that Aragorn knew of its existence and had looked
into it once or twice, but deemed that there was no better custodian
in Middle-earth than Cirdan. If he was familiar with the lore of the
Palantir, he would have known that it was not in accord with the other
Stones and was therefore effectively useless for his purposes.

That, I suspect, we will never know. :-)

[Sandman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Morgoth's Curse
wondering whether Sandman had a specific citation for his
assertion that it was never again used by Men or whether that was
his extrapolation from the text. I did not find any text that
specifically states that the "Elves pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill
to gace into it over the sea to the Undying Lands."

Oh. I was under the impression that Sandman was referring to the
Stone passing into the West as the reason no Man ever looked at it
again.

Indeed.

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Morgoth's Curse
knowledge, there is no evidence either that the Elves ever used it
or that Men never used it again before Cirdan sent it to Aman on
Elrond's ship.

Yup. The footnote from RotK that I referenced merely states that the
Elves guarded it. No mention of them using it, much less making
pilgrimages to peer into it.

Tolkien said as much himself, in The Road Goes Ever on. But it's worth
noting that the Palantir, their uses, their powers and their story has
changed quite a bit over time.

[Sandman]

Post by Morgoth's Curse

Post by Sandman
Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves
too back this stone into their own care, and it was never
again used by men, which is why it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the
stone, but it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged
to the Tower Hill to gace into it over the sea to the Undying
Lands.

Do you have a citation for this? I cannot find it anywhere in
Unfinished Tales.

There's a footnote in Appendix A in RotK that states C�rdan put it
aboard Elrond's ship when he left.

I should clarify that I am aware of that footnote. I was wondering
whether Sandman had a specific citation for his assertion that it
was never again used by Men or whether that was his extrapolation
from the text.

Hehe, you were being quite unclear what part of my post you were asking for
clarification, so my followup only concerned the last part, after which
your question appeared.

The stone is taken to the Undying lands, which is outside the reach of
mortal men, hence the stone cannot ever be used by men again. Bilbo and
Frodo are among the very few mortals to have ever travelled there.

I did not find any text that specifically states that the "Elves
pilgrimaged to the Tower Hill to gace into it over the sea to the Undying
Lands." To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence either that
the Elves ever used it or that Men never used it again before Cirdan sent
it to Aman on Elrond's ship.

See my other followup, where I quote Tolkien explaining what Gildor was
doing when he met Frodo.

And if the stone is in Amar, then no mortal man will ever use it.

It may be that Aragorn knew of its existence and had looked into it once
or twice, but deemed that there was no better custodian in Middle-earth
than Cirdan. If he was familiar with the lore of the Palantir, he would
have known that it was not in accord with the other Stones and was
therefore effectively useless for his purposes.

The stone was meant to look back at Numenor by Elendil, but since it had
sunk all it could ever see was the sea. The elves, however, could use it to
see Aman and the Tower of Avallone where the master stone was kept.

Aragorn wouldn't have much use of gazing at this tower, like Elendil once
had, so he has no reason to keep the stone.

[Sandman]

Post by Morgoth's Curse

Post by Sandman

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
While I disagree that this is what it "cleary means",
it's not impossible. Let's look at the data. There were once
seven palantir's in Middle Earth. In the northern kingdom we
had the Elendil stone, Amon Sul stone and Annumanias stone.
The two latter were lost at sea by Arvedui, and the Elendil
stone sailed to the west at the end of the third age.

Come to think about it, wasn't the Stone at Emyn Beraid, by
right, Aragorn's? Should that not have come into his inheritance
just as the Orthanc Stone did, "in earnest of other things that
shall be given back."? Why then did Cirdan put it on Elrond's
ship into the West?

Tolkien wrote that after the fall of Elendil, the High Elves too
back this stone into their own care, and it was never again used
by men, which is why it was on the ship.
Aragorn, or rather the dunedain were the lawful masters of the
stone, but it was never used by men again. Elves pilgrimaged to
the Tower Hill to gace into it over the sea to the Undying Lands.

Do you have a citation for this? I cannot find it anywhere in
Unfinished Tales.

Well the elves led by Gildor, that Frodo, Sam and Pippin meet in the Shire
when they just leave for their journey are on their way back from the Tower
Hills for this very purpose. It isn't explicitly stated in the book, but
Tolkien mentions it in The Road Goes Ever On:

"No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I, Chap. 3), since they appear
to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell
returning from the palantir of the Tower Hills."

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Sandman
Well the elves led by Gildor, that Frodo, Sam and Pippin meet in the Shire
when they just leave for their journey are on their way back from the Tower
Hills for this very purpose. It isn't explicitly stated in the book, but
"No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I, Chap. 3), since they appear
to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell
returning from the palantir of the Tower Hills."

Well, I must say! I've owned RGEO for years and have only looked at the
music. Shame on me for missing a treasure trove of essays by Tolkien in
his commentaries on the poems in the back. Thank-you, Sandman, for
bringing this to light.

Not only did the Elves gaze into the Stone, but would occasionally
actually see Elbereth in her white radiance!

[Sandman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
Well the elves led by Gildor, that Frodo, Sam and Pippin meet in
the Shire when they just leave for their journey are on their way
back from the Tower Hills for this very purpose. It isn't
explicitly stated in the book, but Tolkien mentions it in The Road
"No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I, Chap. 3), since they
appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near
Rivendell returning from the palantir of the Tower Hills."

Well, I must say! I've owned RGEO for years and have only looked at
the music. Shame on me for missing a treasure trove of essays by
Tolkien in his commentaries on the poems in the back. Thank-you,
Sandman, for bringing this to light.

No problem. RGEO isn't considered canon, but since there is no
contradictory information elsewhere, I don't see why this couldn't be taken
as a possibility.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Sandman
No problem. RGEO isn't considered canon, but since there is no
contradictory information elsewhere, I don't see why this couldn't be taken
as a possibility.

Why not canon? It was published during his lifetime. I'd take it to be
more canon than UT.

[Sandman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
No problem. RGEO isn't considered canon, but since there is no
contradictory information elsewhere, I don't see why this couldn't
be taken as a possibility.

Why not canon? It was published during his lifetime. I'd take it to
be more canon than UT.

Yeah, sorry, mindburp. Of course it's canon. My bad

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Sandman
No problem. RGEO isn't considered canon, but since there is no
contradictory information elsewhere, I don't see why this couldn't be taken
as a possibility.

Why not canon? It was published during his lifetime. I'd take it to be
more canon than UT.

+1

[Stan Brown]

Post by Sandman
It was lost in Anduin over a thousand years earlier, but it's worth
mentioning that so was once the One Ring, and it was later found. Sure, the
One ring may have a bit more "agency" of its own to *be* found, but 1,500
years is a long time. It's not impossible that the master stone was
recovered at some point.

Not impossible, perhaps, but the One Ring wasn't in the middle of the
river; it was near the western short. Also, Anduin was a bigger and
deeper stream at Osgiliath than at the Gladden Fields.

[Sandman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Sandman
It was lost in Anduin over a thousand years earlier, but it's
worth mentioning that so was once the One Ring, and it was later
found. Sure, the One ring may have a bit more "agency" of its own
to *be* found, but 1,500 years is a long time. It's not impossible
that the master stone was recovered at some point.

Not impossible, perhaps, but the One Ring wasn't in the middle of
the river; it was near the western short. Also, Anduin was a bigger
and deeper stream at Osgiliath than at the Gladden Fields.

True, of course. But the Master Stone was significantly larger than the one
ring, as well.

Not impossible, but improbable, then. :)

[Lewis]

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír.

That doesn't follow at all. There's no indication that Sauron's
communications with his servants involve a palantír.

[taxalot]

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír.

Are you talking about communication between the Nazguls and Sauron ? I
always had the feeling a palantir was not required. Sauron has direct
control over them, through his connection with the one ring and the Nine.

The biggest evidence is in the Battle of Pelennor ; Sauron recalls the
Nazguls in a desperate move as soon as Frodo puts on the ring. I do not
see the Nazguls on their fell beasts checking a palantir once in a while
as a teenager checks his smartphone.

-Taxalot

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by taxalot

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr
communicate by palantír.

Are you talking about communication between the Nazguls and Sauron
? I always had the feeling a palantir was not required. Sauron has
direct control over them, through his connection with the one ring and
the Nine.
The biggest evidence is in the Battle of Pelennor ; Sauron recalls
the Nazguls in a desperate move as soon as Frodo puts on the ring. I do
not see the Nazguls on their fell beasts checking a palantir once in a
while as a teenager checks his smartphone.

But in "The Land of Shadow":

"...and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West,
at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the
mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark
canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill
cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for
them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower.
The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom."

So here it seems that not only was Sauron unaware that the King of the
Nazgûl had died, but another one has to fly all the way from Minas
Tirith to the Dark Tower to give him the news.

Maybe Sauron could telepathy with them only in emergencies (like a phone
that's deactivated except for 911?). Or he could give some orders but
couldn't get information. Or Tolkien forgot what he'd written.

[Sandman]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by taxalot

Post by Steve Morrison
We are clearly meant to understand that Minas Morgul and
Barad-dûr communicate by palantír.

Are you talking about communication between the Nazguls and Sauron
? I always had the feeling a palantir was not required. Sauron has
direct control over them, through his connection with the one ring
and the Nine.
The biggest evidence is in the Battle of Pelennor ; Sauron recalls
the Nazguls in a desperate move as soon as Frodo puts on the ring.
I do not see the Nazguls on their fell beasts checking a palantir
once in a while as a teenager checks his smartphone.

"...and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the
West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above
the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into
the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out
a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer
held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill
tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his
doom."
So here it seems that not only was Sauron unaware that the King of
the Nazgûl had died, but another one has to fly all the way from
Minas Tirith to the Dark Tower to give him the news.
Maybe Sauron could telepathy with them only in emergencies (like a
phone that's deactivated except for 911?). Or he could give some
orders but couldn't get information. Or Tolkien forgot what he'd
written.

Or maybe only the witchking could communicate back to Sauron?

[Julian Bradfield]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"...and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West,
at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the
mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark
canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill
cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for
them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower.
The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom."
So here it seems that not only was Sauron unaware that the King of the
Nazgûl had died, but another one has to fly all the way from Minas
Tirith to the Dark Tower to give him the news.

Interesting. I'd always assumed that this *was* the witch-king, being
dramatically and ostentatiously terminated, in rather the same way
that Sauron and Saruman were.

[Clams Canino]

Post by Julian Bradfield
Interesting. I'd always assumed that this *was* the witch-king, being
dramatically and ostentatiously terminated, in rather the same way
that Sauron and Saruman were.

Same assumptions here.
-W

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Jerry Friedman
"...and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West,
at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the
mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark
canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill
cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for
them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower.
The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom."
So here it seems that not only was Sauron unaware that the King of the
Nazgûl had died, but another one has to fly all the way from Minas
Tirith to the Dark Tower to give him the news.

Interesting. I'd always assumed that this *was* the witch-king, being
dramatically and ostentatiously terminated, in rather the same way
that Sauron and Saruman were.

An interesting idea, and not one that had occurred to me. But I'd
be surprised if a dead Nazgûl would be visible to mortal eyes. Even
Saruman was only briefly visible as a misty figure that rapidly vanished.
Besides, I wouldn't expect a dead Nazgûl to return to Sauron. In their
origins they were human, and so upon death almost certainly would go to
the Halls of Mandos and eventually pass beyond the confines of the world
as all human souls do. If the Valar can't change the ultimate fate of
Men without special permission from Eru, I don't think Sauron would be
able to do so either.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Jerry Friedman
"...and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West,
at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the
mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark
canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill
cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for
them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower.
The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom."
So here it seems that not only was Sauron unaware that the King of the
Nazgûl had died, but another one has to fly all the way from Minas
Tirith to the Dark Tower to give him the news.

Interesting. I'd always assumed that this *was* the witch-king, being
dramatically and ostentatiously terminated, in rather the same way
that Sauron and Saruman were.

That had never occurred to me. But I can't see it. In addition to what
Wayne Brown said, here's the Witch-King's death.

"Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk
were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and
a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing,
passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was
swallowed up and was never heard again in that age of the world."

So he seems to just disappear in an instant--there's no sign of anything
black heading east. And if his voice died and was never heard again,
then Frodo and Sam wouldn't have heard it. Also, "woe and dismay" seems
too weak for someone who's dying (or whatever), but about right for a
Ringwraith when his captain has been killed.

(Something I just noticed: undying is good, but undead is bad.)

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and
hauberk were empty.

Chalk it up to aging eyes, early morning and the decline of the English
language with the pervasiveness of internet abbreviations, but I swear
at first it said, "But lol the mantle and hauberk were empty".

[Paul S. Person]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 06:47:27 -0400, Bill O'Meally <omeallymd at

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and
hauberk were empty.

Chalk it up to aging eyes, early morning and the decline of the English
language with the pervasiveness of internet abbreviations, but I swear
at first it said, "But lol the mantle and hauberk were empty".

I'm not getting your point.

Please try again, perhaps later in the day.

[Michael Cole]

Post by Paul S. Person
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 06:47:27 -0400, Bill O'Meally <omeallymd at

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and
hauberk were empty.

Chalk it up to aging eyes, early morning and the decline of the English
language with the pervasiveness of internet abbreviations, but I swear
at first it said, "But lol the mantle and hauberk were empty".

I'm not getting your point.
Please try again, perhaps later in the day.

Ah, he misread the exclamation mark as an "l", thus reading, "But
<laugh out loud> the mantle and hauberk were empty"

'Though I must say, a text-speak version of LOTR would be an
interesting experiment.

Frodo - "I will take the ring to Mordor, though I know not the way.
ROFL"

From Gandalf at the bridge in Moria as he is dragged downwards, "Flee
you fools, BRB"

[Paul S. Person]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 09:01:15 +1100, Michael Cole

Post by Michael Cole

Post by Paul S. Person
On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 06:47:27 -0400, Bill O'Meally <omeallymd at

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and
hauberk were empty.

Chalk it up to aging eyes, early morning and the decline of the English
language with the pervasiveness of internet abbreviations, but I swear
at first it said, "But lol the mantle and hauberk were empty".

I'm not getting your point.
Please try again, perhaps later in the day.

Ah, he misread the exclamation mark as an "l", thus reading, "But
<laugh out loud> the mantle and hauberk were empty"

OK, I see it now. Thanks.