Smial

[Warrior of Rohan]

How do you pronounce "Smial"

Is it "smile" or "smeel" or something in between.

Thanks

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Warrior of Rohan
How do you pronounce "Smial"
Is it "smile" or "smeel" or something in between.

I pronounce it 'smile'.

[Tux Wonder-Dog]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Warrior of Rohan
How do you pronounce "Smial"
Is it "smile" or "smeel" or something in between.

I pronounce it 'smile'.

FWIW, that's the way I used to pronounce it; it is derived from OE "smygel",
which would support that pronunciation, in analogy to ME "knight", where
the "gh" was pronounced but which disappeared with a change in stress.

Wesley Parish

[TolkienFan77]

Post by Tux Wonder-Dog

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Warrior of Rohan
How do you pronounce "Smial"
Is it "smile" or "smeel" or something in between.

I pronounce it 'smile'.

FWIW, that's the way I used to pronounce it; it is derived from OE "smygel",
which would support that pronunciation, in analogy to ME "knight", where
the "gh" was pronounced but which disappeared with a change in stress.
Wesley Parish

On a similiar note:

Is Michel Delving pronounced:

a: mik-el delving, or
b. mye-kel delving

Or: is it "nickel" or "Michael"?

[Alison]

Post by TolkienFan77
a: mik-el delving, or
b. mye-kel delving
Or: is it "nickel" or "Michael"?

I'm quite prepared to be corrected, but I've always pronounced it with
a short i and a soft ch, like the French name, but with the stress on
the first syllable rather than on the second. Mish'l is the closest I
can get to writing it. There is a place called Micheldelver in
Hampshire in the south of England pronounced in this way.


--
Alison

[Troels Forchhammer]

On 11 Dec 2006 18:25:19 -0800, "TolkienFan77"

<snip>

I'm quite prepared to be corrected, but I've always pronounced it
with a short i and a soft ch, like the French name,

So have I, but after having checked with LotR, I've come to believe
it to be wrong. LotR App. E,I 'Pronunciation of Words and Names' has:

The Westron or Common Speech has been entirely trans-
lated into English equivalents. All Hobbit names and
special words are intended to be pronounced accordingly:
for example, /Bolger/ has g as in /bulge/, and /mathom/
rhymes with /fathom/.

So, 'Michel' should be pronounced as in English, but that, obviously,
doesn't tell us precisely how ;-)

There is a place called Micheldelver in Hampshire in the south
of England pronounced in this way.

I can't say I'm surprised, but my understanding (very limited though
it is) is that this would not be the standard English pronunciation?

Since the Danish translation, to which I was first introduced, has
"Mikkel", I am predisposted to favour a pronunciation that rhymes
with 'nickel', but I fear that I have no basis for this other than
national idiosyncracies ;-) (if asked again I shall, of course,
insist that I think this pronunciation fits better with the internal
history of the Hobbit names being transferred from a time when the
Hobbits spoke a language from the upper vales of Anduin; closely
related to the languages of Dale and Rohan).

[Alison]

On 12 Dec 2006 23:09:10 GMT, Troels Forchhammer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
So, 'Michel' should be pronounced as in English, but that, obviously,
doesn't tell us precisely how ;-)

There is a place called Micheldelver in Hampshire in the south
of England pronounced in this way.

I can't say I'm surprised, but my understanding (very limited though
it is) is that this would not be the standard English pronunciation?

Yes it would be. The e after the ch softens it. The ch in Michael is
made hard by the a after it.

--
Alison

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Alison
On 12 Dec 2006 23:09:10 GMT, Troels Forchhammer

<snip>

Post by Alison
Yes it would be. The e after the ch softens it. The ch in Michael
is made hard by the a after it.

I thought that would make it the sound of ch in church?

(The main part of my English comes from reading -- so while I consider
myself reasonably skilled in written English, I am aware that my
pronunciation at times is . . . shall we just say 'deviant' <G>)

[Alison]

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:01:50 GMT, Troels Forchhammer

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Alison
On 12 Dec 2006 23:09:10 GMT, Troels Forchhammer

<snip>

Post by Alison
Yes it would be. The e after the ch softens it. The ch in Michael
is made hard by the a after it.

I thought that would make it the sound of ch in church?
(The main part of my English comes from reading -- so while I consider
myself reasonably skilled in written English, I am aware that my
pronunciation at times is . . . shall we just say 'deviant' <G>)

It could well be ch as in church, it might equally well be more of a
sh. We can't really tell unless Tolkien said anything about it.
Personally I think the sh sounds more euphonious. It's definitely not
a k sound as in Michael though.

--
Alison

[Pete Gray]

Post by TolkienFan77
a: mik-el delving, or
b. mye-kel delving
Or: is it "nickel" or "Michael"?

The locals call it 'Midling'.

(there's a village near where I live spelt 'Athelstaneford', but
pronounced 'Elshinfud')

There aren't many place names in the UK with 'ichel' in them.
Michelcombe in Devon, Michelmersh and Micheldever in Hampshire; Long
Crichel and More Crichel in Dorset; and Chicheley in Buckinghamshire are
all I can find.

FWIW, the parish of Michelmersh certainly was (I don't know about is)
pronounced (and spelt) Mitchelmersh .
(see <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HAM/Michelmersh/>)

Crichel Down (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crichel_Down_Affair>) is
definitely pronounced 'Critchel'.

So despite Micheldever being (per Alison) pronounced 'Misheldever', a
southern English pronunciation would probably be Mitchel Delving. Note
that there are a number of place names (more commonly in the north, but
also a few in the south) that start 'Mickle...'. The retention of the
'ch' in the spelling thus implies, I think, the 'itch' pronunciation.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I used to be wrong about this, until a bona fide philologist straightene=
d =

me out: what used to be Old English ch (=3Dkh) was fronted in the south=
to =

modern ch (church) but hardened in Scotland and the borders to k (kirk).=
=

So it should be "Mitchell" Delving. Contrast Mickleburg (Belegost), =

intentionally archaic.

Post by Pete Gray

Post by TolkienFan77
a: mik-el delving, or
b. mye-kel delving
Or: is it "nickel" or "Michael"?

The locals call it 'Midling'.
(there's a village near where I live spelt 'Athelstaneford', but
pronounced 'Elshinfud')
There aren't many place names in the UK with 'ichel' in them.
Michelcombe in Devon, Michelmersh and Micheldever in Hampshire; Long
Crichel and More Crichel in Dorset; and Chicheley in Buckinghamshire a=

re

Post by Pete Gray
all I can find.
FWIW, the parish of Michelmersh certainly was (I don't know about is)
pronounced (and spelt) Mitchelmersh .
(see <http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HAM/Michelmersh/>)
Crichel Down (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crichel_Down_Affair>) is
definitely pronounced 'Critchel'.
So despite Micheldever being (per Alison) pronounced 'Misheldever', a
southern English pronunciation would probably be Mitchel Delving. Note=
that there are a number of place names (more commonly in the north, bu=

t

Post by Pete Gray
also a few in the south) that start 'Mickle...'. The retention of the
'ch' in the spelling thus implies, I think, the 'itch' pronunciation.

-- =

The Dodo never had a chance. He seems to have been invented for the sole=
=

purpose of becoming extinct and that was all he was good for.

[TT Arvind]

I used to be wrong about this, until a bona fide philologist straightened
me out: what used to be Old English ch (=kh) was fronted in the south to
modern ch (church) but hardened in Scotland and the borders to k (kirk).
So it should be "Mitchell" Delving.

That's my understanding too. I believe that Germanic had a velar /k/,
which became an affricative in Old English. It reverted to being velar
in the North but in the South it was palatalised and fronted,
eventually turning the word into "much".

I think the root itself goes all the way back to Indo-European,
cropping up in Greek ("mega"), Latin ("magnus") and Sanskrit ("maha").
[ObScandLingRef: also cognate with Da/No/Sv meget/mykje/mycket]


Arvind