Discussion:
One Thrain or Two: A detailed textual history
(too old to reply)
Michael Martinez
2004-06-23 18:06:07 UTC
Permalink
How many Thrains did Tolkien put into the first edition of THE HOBBIT?
Were there originally two Dwarves named Thrain in the original
HOBBIT, or just one? One of the key points of the "there was only one
Thrain" argument comes at the end of this passage in THE TREASON OF
ISENGARD in the chapter "The Council of Elrond (2)" where Christopher
Tolkien writes:

There is no question that the genealogy as first devised in THE
HOBBIT was Thorin Oakenshield - Thrain - Thror (always without
accents). At one point, however, Thror and Thrain were reversed
in my father's typescript, and this survived into the first proof.
Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the proofs
and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this one error
my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain right through
the book; but that having done so he then changed all the
occurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror. It is hard to believe
that this extraordinary concern was unnconnected with the
words on 'Thror's map' in THE HOBBIT: 'Here of old was THRAIN
King under the Mountain'; but the solution of this conundrum, if
it can be found, belongs with the textual history of THE HOBBIT,
and I shall not pursue it further. I mention it, of course,
because in the early manuscripts of THE LORD OF THE RINGS the
genealogy reverts to Thorin - Thror - Thrain despite the
publication of Thorin - Thrain - Thror in THE HOBBIT. The
only solution I can propose for this is that having, for
whatever reason, hesitated so long between alternatives, when my
father was drafting "The Council of Elrond" Thorin - Thror - Thrain
seemed as 'right' as Thorin - Thrain - Thror, and he did not
check it with THE HOBBIT.

Years later, my father mentioned in the prefatory note that appeared
in the second (1951) edition:

A final note may be added, on a point raised by several students
of the lore of the period. On Thror's Map is written HERE OF OLD
WAS THRAIN KING UNDRE THE MOUNTAIN; yet Thrain was the son of
Thror, the last King under the Mountain before the coming of the
dragon. The Map, however, is not in error. Names are often
repeated in dynasties, and the genealogies show that a distant
ancestor of Thror was referred to, Thrain I, a fugitive from
Moria, who first discovered the Lonely Mountain, Erebor, and
ruled there for a while before his people moved on to the remoter
mountains of the North.

In the third edition of 1966 the opening of Thorin's story in
Chapter I was changed to introduce Thrain I into the text. Until
then it had read:

'Long ago in my grandfather's time some dwarves were driven out
of the far North, and came with all their wealth and their tools
to this Mountain on the map. There they mined and they tunnelled
and they made huge halls and great workshops...'

The present text of THE HOBBIT reads here:

'Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out
of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and their
tools to this Mountain on the map. It had been discovered by my
far ancestor, Thrain the Old, but now they mined and they
tunnelled and they made huger halls and greater workshops...'

At the same time, in the next sentence, 'my grandfather was King
under the Mountain' was changed to 'my grandfather was King under
the Mountain again.'

The history of Thrain the First, fugitive from Moria, first King
under the Mountain, and discoverer of the Arkenstone, was given
in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, Appendix A (III), Durin's Folk; and
doubtless the prefatory note in the 1951 edition and the passage
in Appendix A were closely related. But this was the product of
development in the history of the Dwarves that came in with
THE LORD OF THE RINGS (and indeed the need to explain the words
on the map 'Here of old was Thrain King under the Mountain'
evidently played a part in the development). When THE HOBBIT
was first published it was Thrain son of Thror - the only
Thrain at that time conceived of - who discovered the Arkenstone.

Christopher Tolkien wrote this long passage because, in the text he
had just presented, Gloin referred to Thrain as the father of Thror.
Earlier in the drafts Gloin had gotten the family tree "right"
according to what was established in THE HOBBIT, but then he began to
stumble (that is, Tolkien got confused). The first occurrence of the
error is found in THE RETURN OF THE SHADOW, and Christopher apparently
felt it only merited a brief mention without explanation in the index
entries for "Thrain" and "Thror". He must have concluded that the
continued errors in the texts used in THE TREASON OF ISENGARD demanded
some explanation.

The last sentence ("When THE HOBBIT was first published it was Thrain
son of Thror - the only Thrain at that time conceived - who discovered
the Arkenstone") has been assigned disproportionate importance and
some people feel they need look no further than this to determine the
correctness of the "One Thrain" argument.

However, when he wrote that passage, Christopher Tolkien did not take
into consideration several important points (in fact, he excused
himself from a full examination of the matter -- see below). And I
think it is fair to suggest that Christopher was probably strongly
influenced by his own childhood memories of the story in its
prepublication state (in which there was indisputably only one
Thrain). But Christopher was also looking back at the matter through
the lenses of two additional editions. When his father wrote the
prefatory note cited above, he only had to look back through the lens
of one additional edition. His view was not clouded by the textual
changes which would not be made for another 15 years.

The "One Thrain" argument also rests in part upon another statement in
the above passage, near the beginning, where Christopher writes:

...It is hard to believe that this extraordinary concern was
unnconnected with the words on 'Thror's map' in THE HOBBIT:
'Here of old was THRAIN King under the Mountain'; but the
solution of this conundrum, if it can be found, belongs with
the textual history of THE HOBBIT, and I shall not pursue it
further....

He concludes with "the solution of this conundrum...belongs with the
textual history of THE HOBBIT, and I shall not pursue it further".
The "One Thrain" argument ignores this admission of incompleteness,
and that is the primary flaw in the "One Thrain" argument. To see why
this is a flaw, we must examine the textual history Christopher did
not engage in while he was working on THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH.

Considerable information on various texts has come to light since THE
TREASON OF ISENGARD was published. It is now possible for us to
examine the textual history for ourselves.

Douglas Anderson provides a summary of the HOBBIT text history in the
second edition of THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT. Following Christopher's
convention of identifying texts with letters, he names six HOBBIT
manuscripts according to "stages of completion":

Stage A: A six-page handwritten manuscript of Chapter 1 (the
opening pages are missing). This is the earliest
surviving manuscript, in which the dragon is named
Pryftan, and the head dwarf Gandalf, and the wizard
Bladorthin.

NOTE: The first version of Thror's map, which does not include any
reference to "Thrain King under the Mountain" was drawn on a page of
the A manuscript. This is, so far as has been ascertained in any
resources published to date, the ONLY version of the map which does
not mention Thrain. This stage was probably written in 1930-31.

Stage B: A mixed typescript and handwritten manuscript.
The first twelve pages are typed (on Tolkien's Hammond
typewriter), and the remainder of the pages are
handwritten and numbered consecutively from 13 to
167. This stage of composition constitutes Chapters
1 through 12 of the published book, and Chapter 14....

NOTE: Chapter 12 is "Inside Information", in which the Arkenstone (of
Thrain) is first mentioned.

Stage C: A typescript done on the Hammond typewrite
(with the songs in italics), with the pages numbered
from 1 to 132, covering the same material as in
stage B....

NOTE: Everything after Stage C was composed in preparation for
publication.

Stage D: A handwritten manuscript, with pages numbered
from 1 to 45, covering Chapters 13 and 15-19.

Stage E: The typescript from Stage C was reworked, with
the new insert of Chapter 13 paginated 127-134, and
the typescript of the former Chapter 13, now Chapter
14, renumbered by hand 135-40. The new chapters from
stage D are now typed and hand-numbered from 141-68.

Stage F: A second full typescript, first intended as
a printer's typescript, was made at this point, but
it seems not to have been used, as it has a
significant number of typographical mistakes.

After this came the first set of page proofs,
followed by the revised page proofs.

Anderson reconstructs the chronology like this: The story was brought
to Stage C by the late spring or early summer of 1936, at which time
Susan Dagnall visited Oxford and acquired the story from Tolkien.
From August, after she suggested he finish the story and submit it to
George Allen & Unwin, to the beginning of October, Tolkien worked on
the Stage E typescript. Sometime in November, 10-year-old Rayner
Unwin was asked to review the book. Five maps and an uncertain number
of illustrations were submitted with the book to Allen & Unwin.

Anderson suggests the maps included with the submitted manuscript were
"apparently early versions of Thror's Map...and the Wilderland
Map...and maps of the land between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood,
of the land east of Mirkwood to the east of the River Running, and of
Long Lake (combined with a view of the Lonely Mountain).

Rayner Unwin recommended the book be published and suggested that
illustrations would not be necessary, only maps. Wayne Hammond and
Christina Scull reviewed the history of the maps in J.R.R. TOLKIEN:
ARTIST & ILLUSTRATOR:

Rayner Unwin, who was later to guide THE LORD OF THE RINGS into
print, at age ten (in 1936) reviewed the typescript of THE
HOBBIT for his father, publisher Stanley Unwin of the firm
George Allen & Unwin. 'This book, with the help of maps, does
not need any illustrations it is good,' he wrote in breathless,
boyish style, and at first Tolkien and his publisher seem to
have agreed with him. THE HOBBIT was to have no illustrations
PER SE, but would have five maps which, with one exception,
would trace Bilbo's journey across the wild lands east of his
home to the Lonely Mountain, the lair of Smaug the dragon
upom whom the dwarves seek revenge. To judge by extant
sketches and correspondence, these five were THROR'S MAP;
WILDERLAND; and maps of the land between the Misty Mountains
and Mirkwood, of the land east of Mirkwood to just east of the
River Running, and of the Long Lake, the last combined with a
vew of the Lonely Mountain. This would have been their
logical order, following the course of the story, and they
would have made a neat cartographic parallel to the text.
But in the event, their number was reduced to only two.

Tolkien drew at least three of the maps he submitted to Allen
& Unwin in multiple colours, chiefly coloured pencil. The
publisher's production staff objected to this technique, as
it would have required printing the maps as separate plates
in colour halftone, an expensive process. They suggested
instead that THROR'S MAP and WILDERLAND be printed as endpages,
in any two colours Tolkien liked, and that the remaining maps
be printed in only one colour (black), with the text. But first
Tolkien would have to redraw the maps to suit reproduction by
line-block, and to letter them better. This meant, he was told

in the Mirkwood map [i.e. WILDERLAND (84)] showing the Misty
Mountains and the Grey Mountains only by hatching in one
colour, the higher ranges being indicated by closer hatching.
The rivers may then be shown by parallel lines. Possbly it
will be best to indicate Mirkwood in the same colour as the
Mountains, leaving the second colour for all the paths and all
the lettering. All that is needed with the lettering is that
you should do it a little more neatly. This is indeed the only
alteration needed in Thror's Map [85]...."

Further on:

Tolkien tried to do as he was asked, as well as he could, or
as well as he felt he could. Two additional schematic
drawings of the Lonely Mountain, which Tolkien made over
in heavy line, are extant, but neither was used. Within a
month he replied to Allen & Unwin that he had redrawn 'the
chart [i.e. THROR'S MAP] which has to be tipped in (to
Chapter 1), and the general map [WILDERLAND]. I can only
hope -- as I have small skill, and no experience of preparing
such things for reproduction -- that they may possibly serve.
The other maps I have decided are not wanted....

NOTE: The mentioned plate reproduction of Thror's Map (number 85)
contains the following words under the Mountain: "here of old was the
land of Thrain King under the Mountain". This means that Tolkien
submitted a second version of Thror's map, mentioning Thrain as "King
under the Mountain" to the publisher with the original manuscript.
This second version was drawn vertically, and in the lower-left
corner, Tolkien wrote the legend: "Thror's Map. Copied by Bilbo
Baggins. For moon-runes hold up to a light."

George Allen & Unwin accepted THE HOBBIT for publication by December
1936. According to Christopher's explanation of the first
Thror-Thrain mixup, the manuscript submitted to Allen & Unwin
inadvertently switched from Thorin-Thrain-Thror to Thorin-Thror-Thrain
somewhere in the story, and then continued that mistake throughout the
rest of the text. This mistake was carried through to the first proof
of the book (that is, whomever typeset the book repeated the mistake,
knowing no better), which was sent to Tolkien between December 4, 1936
and March 15, 1937.

Allen & Unwin commissioned ten black-and-white illustrations for the
first impression (printing), which Anderson suggests were made between
Christmas 1936 and January 1937. Tolkien sent four drawings ("The
Elvenking's Gate", "Lake Town", "The Front Gate", and "Mirkwood") to
Allen & Unwin on January 4. He also sent the redrawn "Thror's Map"
and "Wilderland Map" (confirmed by Letter 9, cited in the last
paragraph of the Hammond/Scull excerpt above). On January 17, Tolkien
sent six illustrations: "The Hill: Hobbiton-across-the Water", "The
Trolls", "The Mountain-path", "the Misty Mountains Looking West",
"Beorn's Hall", and "The Hall at Bag-End".

The redrawn, third version of "Thror's Map" included the words: "Here
of old was Thrain King under the Mountain" (this is the standard
Thror's Map). This map was simply titled, "Thror's Map" in the
left-hand margin.

Tolkien received the first proofs of the text on February 20 and
February 24, 1937. Anderson says "[Tolkien's] corrections were
considered somewhat heavy, and even though he had carefully calculated
the length of the replacement passages, it was necessary to reset
several sections."

According to the preface for Letter 12, Tolkien returned the corrected
proofs for THE HOBBIT to Allen & Unwin in mid-March, 1937.

Anderson says he "received the revised proofs in early April and
returned them on April 13".

After agreeing in May to allow the American publisher, Houghton
Mifflin Company, to commission colored illustrations with an American
artist, Allen & Unwin persuaded Tolkien to provide the illustrations
himself.

The first Allen & Unwin printing was produced in June 1937, but
release was delayed.

Tolkien drew the first four color illustrations, which were also
included in the second printing of the first Allen & Unwin edition, in
July 1937: "Rivendell", "Bilbo Woke Up with the Early Sun in His
Eyes", "Bilbo Comes to the Huts of the Raft-elves", and "Conversation
with Smaug". He finished a color version of "The Hill:
Hobbiton-across-the Water" by mid-August.

"Conversation with Smaug" includes a detailed rune inscription on a
golden jar which has been translated as: "gold the [? portion obscured
by ladder] Thrain / accursed be the thief."

The first Allen & Unwin printing contained the following passage in
Chapter 1, "An Unexpected Party":

On the table in the light of a big lamp with a red
shade he spread a piece of parchment rather like a map.

"This was made by your grandfather, Thorin," he said
in answer to the Dwarves' excited questions. "It is
a plan of the Mountain."

The text was altered in 1966 to read: "This was made by Thror, your
grandfather, Thorin".

The second Allen & Unwin printing was produced in early December 1937.

The first Houghton Mifflin edition was published in 1938, by which
time Allen & Unwin had asked Tolkien to begin writing a sequel to THE
HOBBIT.

Nearly having finished his work on the primary narrative for THE LORD
OF THE RINGS by September 1947, Tolkien sent a letter to Sir Stanley
Unwin (no. 111) which included "Rayner's comments [on THE LORD OF THE
RINGS]; also some notes on THE HOBBIT; and (for the possible amusement
of yourself and Rayner) a specimen of re-writing of Chapter V of that
work, which would simplify, though not necessarily improve, my present
task." Chapter 5 is "Riddles in the Dark", where Bilbo meets Gollum.

By 1949, according to Christopher Tolkien in THE PEOPLES OF
MIDDLE-EARTH, J.R.R. TOLKIEN had begun working on the appendices for
THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Christopher dates a crucial text, T 4 (version
four of "The Tale of Years" in Appendix B) to the period around August
1949:

On page 177 of THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, Christopher writes:

I think it extremely probable that this text T 4 ...
belongs in time with the texts F 2 and D 2 of the
Appendices on Languages and on Calendars, and with the
third text of THE HEIRS OF ELENDIL, given in the next
chapter. But external evidence of date seems to be
entirely lacking.

On page 119 of THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, Christopher writes:

The earliest text of what became Appendix D to THE LORD OF
THE RINGS is a brief, rough manuscript without title, which
I will call D 1. In style and appearance it suggests
association with the first of the two closely related
manuscripts of the Appendix on Languages, F 1 (see p. 28),
and that this is the case is shown by a reference in the
text to 'the note on Languages p. 11'. This in fact
refers to the second version, F 2, which was thus already
in existence (see p. 136, note 2). D 1 was followed,
clearly at no long interval, by a fair copy, D 2, exactly
parallel to the manuscripts F 1 and F 2 of the Appendix
on Languages; and thus the order of composition was F 1,
F 2; D 1, D 2. I have no doubt at all that all four texts
belong to the same time, which was certainly before the
summer of 1950 (see p. 28 and note 1), and probably earlier:
in fact, an envelope associated with D 1 is postmarked
August 1949.

The T 4 text includes an entry for the year 2590 which reads:

2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm
of Erebor (the Lonely Mountain), and becomes 'King under
the Mountain'. He lives in friendship with the Men of
Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim.

Christopher appends a note to this entry which reads:

'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of
Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged.

At the end of the chapter on this text, Christopher writes in "Notes
on changes made to the manuscript T 4 of the Tale of Years", section
(v), "The Dwarves":

The entry for 2590 recording the founding of the realm
of Erebor was changed to read: 'In the far North dragons
multiply again. Thror...comes south and re-establishes
the realm of Erebor ...' At the same time, at the end
of the entry, this addition was made: 'He was the great-
great-great-grandson of Thrain I Nain's son' (which does
not agree with the genealogical table in Appenix A, RK
p. 361: see pp. 276-7).

Why did Tolkien change this entry and add an extensive family tree?
Because...

In July 1950, Allen & Unwin unexpectedly sent Tolkien proofs for the
second edition of THE HOBBIT (which incorporated the 1947 suggested
changes without Tolkien's advance knowledge). On August 1, 1950,
Tolkien returned the corrected proofs for the second Allen & Unwin
edition of THE HOBBIT with Letter 128:

THE HOBBIT: I return the proofs herewith. They did not require
much correction, but did need some consideration. The thing took
me much by surprise. It is now a long while since I sent in the
proposed alteration of Chapter V, and tentatively suggested the
slight remodelling of the original HOBBIT. I was then still
engaged in trying to fit on the sequel, which would have been
a simpler task with the alteration, besides saving most of a
chapter in that over-long work. However, I never heard any more
about it at all; and I assumed that alteration of the original
book was ruled out. The sequel now dpeends on the earlier version;
and if the revision is really published, there must follow some
considerable rewriting of the sequel.

I must say that I could wish I had had some hint that (in any
circumstances) this change might be made, before it burst upon
me in page-proof. However, I have now made up my mind to accept
the change and its consequences. The thing is now old enough
for me to take a fairly impartial view, and it seems to me that
the revised version is in itself better, in motive and
narrative -- and certainly would make the sequel (if ever
published) mich more natural.

I did not mean the suggested revision to be printed off; but it
seems to have come out pretty well in the wash.

Clearly, Tolkien noticed a problem regarding the history of Erebor.
Christopher provides us with detailed information about what his
father did in response to the problem.

In the chapter "The Making of Appendix A", in the section devoted to
"(IV) DURIN'S FOLK", Christopher writes:

My father's original text of what would become the section
DURIN'S FOLK in Appendix A is extant: a brief, clear
manuscript written on scrap paper entitled OF DURIN'S LINE,
accompanied by a genealogy forming a part of the text.
It was corrected in a few points, and one substantial
passage was added; these changes were made, I think, at
or soon after the writing of the manuscript. I give
this text in full, with the changes shown where they
are of any significance.

The cited text starts out with a long paragraph summarizing the
history of Durin's Folk from his awakening to the coming of the
Balrog. In the original text (as indicated by Christopher's lack of
editorial insertion), the paragraph concludes with:

...For the most part they passed into the North; but
Thrain Nain's son, the king by inheritance, came to
Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, nigh to the eastern eaves
of Mirkwood, and established his realm for a while.

The next paragraph begins:

But Gloin his grandson [> Thorin his son] removed
and abandoned Erebor, and passed into the far North
where the most of his kin now dwelt. But it came
to pass that dragons arose and multiplied in the
North, and made war upon the Dwarves, and
plundered their works and wealth; and many of the
Dwarves fled again southward and eastward. Then
Thror Dain's son, the great-great-grandson of
Thrain, returned to Erebor and became King-under-
the-Mountain, and prospered exceedingly, having
the friendship of all that dwelt near, whether
Elves or Men or the birds and beasts of the land.

The next paragraph tells the story of Smaug, with a substantial change
indicated that does not impact the stated genealogy of Thror. After
the citation, Christopher writes:

In this text and its accompanying genealogical table
(which I have here redrawn) it is seen that an
important advance had been made from the text T 4
of the Tale of Years, where it was told under
the year 2590 that Thror 'founded the realm of
Erebor' (p. 236): as I said in a note on that entry,
'the history of Thror's ancestors had not yet
emerged'. Here that history is present, but not
yet precisely in the final form; for the names of
'the kings of Durin's folk' in the genealogical
table here run Thorin I: Gloin : Dain I, whereas
in that in Appendix A they are Thorin I: Gloin :
Oin : Nain II : Dain I; thus in the present text
Thror is called 'the great-great-grandson of
Thrain [I]'. While the history was at this stage
the corrections and additions were made to T 4:
see p. 252, THE DWARVES.

That last reference is to the section I cited a portion of above.

Finally, the 1951 (second) edition of THE HOBBIT included the
following note, which Tolkien sent to Allen & Unwin with Letter 130 on
10 September 1950. Here is the full text of Letters 129 and 130:

129 FROM A LETTER TO SIR STANLEY UNWIN 10 September 1950
[Allen & Unwin asked Tolkien to supply a 'precise wording'
for a note in the new edition of THE HOBBIT which would
explain the changes in the new text.]

Wll, there is is: the alteration is now made, and cannot,
I suppose, be unmade. Such people as I have consulted
think that the alteration is in itself an improvement
(apart from the question of a sequel). That is something.
But when I tried to consider 'a precise wording' for a
note on the revision in an English edition, I did not
find the matter as simple as I had thought.

I have now on my hands two printed versions of a crucial
incident. Either the first must be regarded as washed
out, a mere miswriting that ought never to have seen
the light; or the story as a whole must take into
account the existence of the two versions and use it.
The former was my original simpleminded intention,
though it is a bit awkward (since the Hobbit is fairly
widely known in its older form) if the literary
pretence of historicity and dependence on record is
to be maintained. The second can be done
convincingly (I think), but not briefly explained in
a note.

In the former case, or in doubt, the only thing to do,
I fancy, is just to say nothing. I am in doubt, so
I propose at the moment just to say nothing; though I
do not like it. There is, in any case, I take it,
no question of inserting a note into the American
reprint. And you will no doubt warn me in good time
when an English one becomes necessary.

In the meanwhile I send you a specimen of the kind
of thing that I should want to insert in an altered
reprint -- if I decide to recognise two versions
of the Ring-finding as part of the authentic
tradition. This is not intended as copy; but if you
would return it, with any comment you like, it would
be helpful.

130 FROM A LETTER TO SIR STANLEY UNWIN 14 September 1950
[Further consideration led Tolkien to decide that an
explanatory note would definitely be needed in the
new edition.]

I have decided to accept the existence of both versions
of Chapter Five, so far as the sequel goes -- though I
have no time at the moment to rewrite that at the
required points. I enclose, therefore, a copy of the
briefest form of the prefatory note: which is intended
as copy, if you should think it well to use it in the
reprint.

The second paragraph of Tolkien's prefatory note dealt with the
apparent discrepancy between Thror's Map and the genealogy of Thorin's
family (as provided in the narrative of THE HOBBIT -- THE ANNOTATED
HOBBIT indicates that no changes were made to the narrative to address
the family history):

A final note may be added, on a point raised by several
students of the lroe of the period. On Thror's Map is
written HERE OF OLD WAS THRAIN KING UNDER THE MOUNATIN;
yet Thrain was the son of Thror, the last King under
the Mountain before the coming of the dragon. The
Map, however, is not in error. names are often repeated
in dynasties, and the genealogies show that a distant
ancestor of Thror was referred to, Thrain I, a fugitive
from Moria, who first discovered the Lonely Mountain,
Erebor, and ruled there for a while, before his people
moved on to the remoter mountains of the North.

These are the facts of the textual history of THE HOBBIT and the
appendices in THE LORD OF THE RINGS with respect to the genealogy of
Thror's family. We can immediately raise several significant points:

1) Both versions of Thror's Map submitted to Allen & Unwin were
clearly labelled "Thror's Map", and both clearly included words naming
Thrain as "King under the Mountain". The narrative stipulates that
the map was drawn by Thorin's grandfather (without naming him).

2) When THE HOBBIT was originally submitted to Allen & Unwin, it
contained the Thror-Thrain mixup, but the first map submitted to them
nonetheless properly identified Thror as the maker of the map and
still named Thrain as the old "King under the Mountain".

3) The second map also correctly identified Thror as its maker and
still included the mention of Thrain as the old "King under the
Mountain", even though Tolkien had gone back and corrected the proofs
to reassert the Thorin-Thrain-Thror relationship.

So, considering that the nomenclature employed was not altered at any
time, the maps cannot be said to be "in error" with respect to the
INTENDED storyline. That is, clearly, Tolkien intended Thror to be
the cartographer. And in the original storyline, Thror was also
Thorin's grandfather. So, Tolkien clearly intended Thorin's
grandfather Thror to have drawn the map which referred to old King
Thrain.

But if the ORIGINAL (pre-submission) story only included one Thrain,
then why did Tolkien include the previously non-existent Thrain the
Old, "King under the Mountain", on the new maps?

Let's go back to Christopher's summation of the TWO Thror-Thrain
mixups:

...It is hard to believe that this extraordinary concern was
unnconnected with the words on 'Thror's map' in THE HOBBIT:
'Here of old was THRAIN King under the Mountain'; ... I
mention it, of course, because in the early manuscripts of
THE LORD OF THE RINGS the genealogy reverts to Thorin - Thror
- Thrain despite the publication of Thorin - Thrain - Thror
in THE HOBBIT. The only solution I can propose for this is
that having, for whatever reason, hesitated so long between
alternatives, when my father was drafting "The Council of
Elrond" Thorin - Thror - Thrain seemed as 'right' as Thorin
- Thrain - Thror, and he did not check it with THE HOBBIT.

The first mixup entered into the story when Tolkien was preparing the
manuscript for submission. The second mixup occurred more than two
years later when Tolkien was writing "The Council of Elrond".

The nomenclature on Thror's Map does not appear to be due to the first
mixup because the map is consistent with the narrative (that is, the
narrative asserts that Thorin's grandfather made the map AND that
Thror was Thorin's grandfather both before and after the mixup).
Neither of the maps allow us to infer that "here of old was Thror King
under the Mountain".

Furthermore, after recounting the history of his people in "An
Unexpected Party", Thorin says:

"I have often wondered about my father's and my
grandfather's escape. I see now they must have
had a private Side-door which only they knew about.
But apparently they made a map, and I should like
to know how Gandalf got hold of it, and why it
did not come down to me, the rightful heir."

When did they make the map? The narrative doesn't say. But the map
includes the words, "The desolation of Smaug" beneath the Mountain (on
the second map -- the first map says "Here is the desolation of Smaug"
above the Mountain). Hence, the map had to be made after Thror and
Thrain escaped the sack of Erebor.

Further on, Gandalf tells Thorin that "your grandfather...gave the map
to his son for safety before he went to the mines of Moria." So, the
grandfather who made the map retained possession of it until he gave
it to Thorin's father. There is no indication that the father altered
the map in any way. Nor is there any indication that the father
helped to make the map (other than Thorin's own words, which may be
figurative).

Now we could assume that Tolkien drew the second version of Thror's
Map (the first one submitted to Allen & Unwin) after typing THE HOBBIT
for submission. At that point in time, most of the manuscript
referred to Thorin's father as Thror. But this assumption forces us
to ask why Tolkien did not redraw the map to reflect the reversal of
names in the proofs? Furthermore, why would Tolkien not correct the
narrative to say that the map was drawn by Thorin's father (or kept by
him or given by him to the grandfather) so that the names of the maker
(Thror) and the king (Thrain) agreed with the narrative?

To assume that the second map was made in accordance with the
erroneous genealogy forces us to assume that Tolkien did not bother to
check his details against the narrative. Worse, we must also assume
that, when Tolkien corrected the name mixup, he decided not to correct
the map to agree with the corrected proofs.

On the other hand, when Tolkien drew a third map in December, he would
have repeated the mistake (if we assume that the second map was
erroneous). We can argue that Tolkien did not have the submitted
typescript to refer to, but he DID have the earlier versions of the
story to work from. So, why would he mistakenly include Thrain of Old
on the third map? Based on the earlier versions of the story, Thrain
could not have been King under the Mountain.

So, either way, assuming that the maps' nomenclature was established
in error (either in accordance with the first Thror-Train mixup or in
accordance with the earlier versions of the story), the maps would be
contradicting the narrative. If, while correcting the name mixup,
Tolkien altered the narrative to show that it was Thror (now Thorin's
grandfather again) who made the map, then why not stipulate somewhere
that a previous Thrain had been King under the Mountain?

In short, any assumption that Tolkien's error extended beyond the mere
confusion of the names of Thror and Thrain in the primary narrative
requires that we assume he made further errors while trying to resolve
the first error. On the other hand, if the text didn't rule out an
earlier Thrain, then the map would clearly be in agreement with the
narrative even if it did not elaborate on that earlier Thrain's
history.

And then there is the matter of Thrain's name on the jar in the color
illustration "Conversation with Smaug". Why was Thrain's name used
and not Thror's? By July 1937, when Tolkien drew the illustration, he
had already corrected the Thror-Thrain mixup AND he had already drawn
two maps which named Thrain as a King under the Mountain (and both
maps were attributed to Thror, not to Thrain).

We could assume that Tolkien did not have the maps or the proofs or
the manuscript (the book was printed in June but he did not receive
his own copy until August), and that he simply FORGOT who had been
King under the Mountain -- but after his extensive revision of the
text, correcting the name switch only a few months previously, that
seems rather a stretch. Especially when Tolkien could have checked
the earlier manuscripts to see who had been King under the Mountain.

We could also assume that, for a reason he never disclosed in any
writing published so far, a considerable portion of Erebor's treasure
belonged to Thrain (the Arkenstone of Thrain, Thrain's cursed jar,
Thrain's goat-collar, etc.). But why should items in the hoard be
named for Thrain and not for Thror?

Thror gets a map, Thrain gets an Arkenstone and gold jar. That seems
rather an odd exchange for father and son, when it is the father who
is the King.

On the other hand, if we accept the evidence at face value, that
Tolkien intended a reference to another King under the Mountain in
both the map and the illustration, then all we have to do is determine
if the narrative disallows a previous Thrain.

So, let's return to 1950, when Tolkien received the unexpected proofs
for the second Allen & Unwin edition of THE HOBBIT. He had already
included some Dwarf history in his "Tale of Years", but he had
apparently not yet written "Durin's Folk" for Appendix A. We can
infer that the sequence went something like this:

Tale of Years Text T 4 (1949)
Proofs of Hobbit from Allen & Unwin (July 1950)
Tolkien returns Proofs (August 1950)

Around this time, he appears to have altered the Tale of Years entry
and begun the composition of "Durin's Folk", which from its first
inception mentioned the earlier Thrain (calling him Thrain I).
Tolkien subsequently wrote the prefatory note, which stipulated that
the Thrain on the map was Thrain I, not Thorin's father Thrain.

Tolkien did not need to make any changes to THE HOBBIT in order to
make the narrative consistent with the map or the prefatory note. The
note itself was written primarily to satisfy Tolkien's concerns about
the significant changes in Chapter 5, "Riddles in the Dark". But he
obviously felt it was important enough to mention the distinction
between the Thrain on the map and Thorin's father Thrain.

Why?

Not because he had created a second Thrain for THE LORD OF THE RINGS.
Clearly, he created THAT Thrain after he reviewed THE HOBBIT for the
second edition. He had composed a history for the Dwarves which did
not encompass the two Thrains. He had been forced to revise that
history to accomodate what had been established by THE HOBBIT, both in
the two maps and in the colored illustration, "Conversation with
Smaug". If it was really obvious that there was only one Thrain, then
why revise the history of Durin's Folk? Why add the prefatory note
"adding" a Thrain and thus "covering up" the supposed error?

Is the published narrative of the first edition of THE HOBBIT
inconsistent with the history as stipulated in THE LORD OF THE RINGS?
For example, what does THE HOBBIT say about the history of Erebor?

Well, Thorin's account read thus:

"O very well," said Thorin. "Long ago in my grandfather's
time some dwarves were driven out of the far North, and
came with all their wealth and their tools to this Mountain
on the map. There they mined and they tunnelled and they
made huge halls and great workshops -- and in addition I
believe they found a good deal of gold and a great many
jewels too. Anyway they grew immensely rich and famous,
and my grandfather was King under the Mountain, and treated
with great reverence by the mortal men, who lived to the
South, and were gradually spreading up the Running River
as far as the valley overshadowed by the Mountain. They
built the merry town of Dale there in those days. Kings
used to send for our smiths, and reward even the least
skillful most richly. Fathers would beg us to take their
sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in
food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for
ourselves. Altogether those were good days for us, and
the poorest of us had money to spend and to lend, and
leisure to make beautiful things just for the fun of it,
not to speak of the most marvellous and magical toys, the
like of which is not to be found in the world now-a-days.
So my grandfather's halls became full of wonderful jewels
and carvings and cups, and the toyshops of Dale were a
sight to behold...."
(From "An Unexpected Party")

Thorin's history makes it pretty clear that a lot of things happened
in his grandfather's time. But he doesn't say that the dwarves
DISCOVERED the Mountain in his grandfather's time. Nor does he say
the grandfather was the first (or only) King under the Mountain. In
fact, he doesn't even say that Thror FOUNDED the Kingdom under the
Mountain, or that Thror actually came south with the other Dwarves
Thorin refers to.

The reader can just as easily infer than an existing Dwarf community
was enlarged as that a new one was established. This passage is
therefore not entirely consistent with the history provided in
"Durin's Folk", but it doesn't contradict that history, either.
Tolkien did not revise this passage to explicitly refer to any
previous Thrain until the copyright conflict with Ace Books forced him
to revise THE HOBBIT in 1966. Then he changed the passage to read:

"O very well," said Thorin. "Long ago in my grandfather
Thror's time our family was driven out of the far North,
and came back with all their wealth and their tools to
this Mountain on the map. It had been discovered by my
far ancestor, Thrain the Old, but now they mined...and
my grandfather was King under the Mountain again...."

This alteration didn't simply add Thrain the Old to the narrative. It
also explicitly included Thror and his family with the Dwarves who
came down from the north. The narrative now became fully consistent
with the details provided in "Durin's Folk", where the family was said
to have abandoned Erebor after Thrain I died.

There were other changes which Tolkien introduced to the narrative in
1966 to make it more consistent with "Durin's Folk". For example, in
the original narrative, Gandalf told Thorin:

"I did not 'get hold of it,' I was given it," said
the wizard. "Your grandfather was killed, you
remember, in the Mines of Moria by a goblin."

Tolkien revised this in 1966 to conclude with: "Your grandfather Thror
was killed, you remember, in the Mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin."
Changing "a goblin" to "Azog the Goblin" brought the text into full
agreement with "Durin's Folk", but it was not previously contradicting
the account in "Durin's Folk".

Tolkien could have made these changes in 1950, but he chose not to.
We don't know why. We simply know that he did not introduce these
explicit references to the "Durin's Folk" history into the narrative
at that time.

There is nothing in the first edition narrative which explicitly
contradicts the "Durin's Folk" account, not even the references to the
Arkenstone of Thrain. The published story doesn't actually say who
found it (or for whom it was named). Now, since there was only one
Thrain in the origainl, pre-submission story, it follows that the
Arkenstone was named for Thorin's father Thrain. Even so, that
doesn't mean it was Thrain who found it.

Since the original, pre-submission manscript was only completed
through what became Chapter 14 ("Fire and Water"), it would -- at most
-- have only had one passage which mentioned the Arkenstone: the
section in "Inside Information" where the Dwarves talk about the
treasure of Erebor:

"...But the fairest of all was the great white gem, which
the dwarves had found beneath the roots of the Mountain,
the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain."

Tolkien never altered this text. Simply naming the Arkenstone for a
Thrain was consistent with the account provided in THE LORD OF THE
RINGS. In the revised ANNOTATED HOBBIT, Douglas Anderson briefly
addresses the rightful naming of the Arkenstone at the beginning of "A
Thief in the Night" in a comment on the opening paragraphs:

Now the days passed slowly and wearily. Many of the
Dwarves spent their time piling and ordering the
treasure; and now Thorin spoke of the Arkenstone
of Thrain, and bade them eagerly to look for it in
every corner.

"For the Arkenstone of my father," he said, "is worth
more than a river of gold in itself, and to me it
is beyond price. That stone of all the treasure I
name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone
who finds it and withholds it."

Anderson concludes his commentary by saying:

...On page 287 of THE HOBBIT, the Arkenstone is referred
to as "the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of
Thrain." Here, Thorin speaks of "the Arkenstone of my
father," and on page 334 Thorin says "that stone was
my father's." Surely in naming the stone "the Arkenstone
of Thrain," Tolkien would have meant the Thrain who
discovered it. Originally, the discoverer was Thorin's
father, but when Tolkien came to expand the Dwarvish
ancestry he seems to have missed the significance here
of Thorin describing the stone as being his father's.
By rights, at the time of the coming of the dragon,
the stone belonged not to Thrain but to Thror, Thrain's
father, then the King under the Mountain.

If, when he first published THE HOBBIT, Tolkien had intended the
Arkenstone to be named for Thorin's immediate father, he should have
(according to Christopher's anecdote regarding the name mixup) changed
"Arkenstone of Thrain" to "Arkenstone of Thror". Anderson does not
refer to the name mixup, much less indicate that it affected the
naming of the Arkenstone. I have sought clarification on the point
but have not yet received a reply.

Anderson referred to a second passage, in "The Clouds Burst", where
the Arkenstone is again mentioned:

"Is there then nothing for which you would yield any
of your gold?"

"Nothing that you or your friends have to offer."

"What of the Arkenstone of Thrain?" said he, and
at the same moment the old man opened the casket and
held aloft the jewel. The light leaped from his
hand, bright and white in the morning.

Then Thorin was stricken dump with amazement and
confusion. No one spoke for a long while.

Thorin at length broke the silence, and his voice was
thick with wrath. "That stone was my father's, and is
mine," he said. "Why should I purchase my own?" But
wonder overcame him and he added: "But how came you by
the heirloom of my house -- if there is need to ask
such a question of thieves?"

Now, "heirloom of my house" is a curious expression for someone to use
of an artifact which his father has supposedly found. The expression
implies that the Arkenstone has been in Thorin's family for more than
a generation. The whole passage is rendered ambiguous with respect to
whom the artifact is named for. Does it HAVE to be Thorin's immediate
father? No. Now, Christopher asserts (in THE TREASON OF ISENGARD)
that it was originally Thorin's father Thrain who found the stone.
But though that would have been the case for the pre-publication
story, it does not follow that it had to remain so when Tolkien added
new material to THE HOBBIT as he prepared it for submission to Allen &
Unwin.

Neither of these passages was altered by J.R.R. Tolkien. Nor did he
mention the Arkenstone in his original draft of "Durin's Folk", and
the one reference to it in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH does not
suggest the Arkenstone was involved in the name mixup. At the very
least, Tolkien found nothing to contradict the idea that the
Arkenstone was named for Thrain the Old (Thrain I) when he reviewed
the second edition proofs for THE HOBBIT and the drafts for "The Tale
of Years" and "Durin's Folk" in 1950.

Concerning "Durin's Folk", while it is true, as Christopher said in
his note for the 2590 Tale of Years entry, that "the history of
Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged", THE HOBBIT nonetheless always
referred to Thorin's family prior to his grandfather:

"Stand by the grey stone where the thrush knocks," said
Elrond, "and the setting sun with the last light of
Durin's Day will shine upon the key-hole."

"Durin, Durin!" said Thorin. "He was the father of the
fathers of one of the two races of dwarves, the Longbeards,
and my grandfather's ancestor..."
(From "A Short Rest")

Durin is placed at the remotest beginning of Dwarf history, and
therefore the reader understands that Thror himself was forebears
going all the way back to Durin. The only change Tolkien made to this
passage for the second edition was to replace the word "where" in
"where the thrush knocks" with "when". "the two races of dwarves" was
only replaced by "the eldest race of Dwarves" in 1966, clearly an
oversight when Tolkien reviewed the text of THE HOBBIT in 1950.

It should be noted that, while working on Appendix A, Tolkien wrote
the following passage:

To [their children] they are devoted, often rather
fiercely: that is, they may treat them with apparent
harshness (especially in the desire to ensure that
they shall grow up tough, hardy, unyielding), but
they defend them with all their power, and resent
injuries to them even more than to themselves. The
same is true of the attitude of children to parents.
For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-
time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or
heads of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the
whole group, it will be understood how it was that
the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled
itself to avenge Thror.

Tolkien thus clearly envisioned the Dwarves looking upon each king as
a "father", and his use of the word "father" (and the similar words
"sire" and "longfather") throughout the books is relatively broad. A
father could be a figurative leader (as when Ghan-Buri-Ghan called
Theoden "father of horse-men"), or a remote ancestor (as in Durin
being the father of the fathers of the Longbeards), or one of many
ancestors (as when Faramir speaks of Gondor's "longfathers of old" at
Aragorn's coronation). Aragorn calls Isildur and Anarion his "sires
of old" when he passes between the Argonath. Aragorn's use of the
plural is necessitated because he is speaking of two ancestors.
Individually, he would have referred to Isildur as "my sire of old" or
Anarion as "my sire of old", but he would have been using the word
"sire" figuratively, not literally, since his literal sire was
Arathorn II.

Tolkien is not obligated to avoid such ambiguous usage for Thorin,
when he claims the Arkenstone "was my father's". If Douglas Anderson
is correct in arguing that Thorin's father Thrain should not have been
the rightful owner of the Arkenstone, then it follows that either
J.R.R. Tolkien failed to correct several occurences of "the Arkenstone
of Thrain" -- AS WELL AS at least two passages where Thorin associated
"my father" with the Arkenstone -- or else Tolkien intended to leave
those passages unaltered THROUGH TWO REVISIONS of the text because he
felt they referred to a remote ancestor of Thorin's named Thrain,
Thrain the Old (Thrain I).

In fact, if Thorin's statements were so obviously incorrect, then why
did Tolkien not change them in 1966, when he removed the second
paragraph of the prefatory note and inserted a reference to Thrain I
in "An Unexpected Party"? No revisions were made to either "Inside
Information" or "A Thief in the Night" in either the second or third
editions of THE HOBBIT. One change was introduced to "The Gathering
of the Clouds" in 1937 and several more were made in 1966 -- none of
them concerned with Thorin's ancestry or the Arkenstone. A single
foot-note was added to "The Clouds Burst" in 1966. All in all, after
reviewing the texts twice, Tolkien elected not to change a thing
regarding Thorin's statements about the Arkenstone.

Clearly, Tolkien didn't feel they HAD to refer only to Thrain II,
Thorin's father. In Tolkien's view, these passages obviously agreed
with both the 1950 prefatory note and the 1966 revision to Thorin's
history in "An Unexpected Party", and therefore he also deemed them to
be in agreement with his revised history of Durin's Folk as published
in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. That history was only revised after Tolkien
received the proofs for the second edition of THE HOBBIT.

Clearly, he had realized he had introduced a second Thrain into the
Hobbit story in 1936, an ambiguous ancestor of Thorin's who was not
his father, and Tolkien had to adjust THE LORD OF THE RINGS to
accomodate that fact.
Simon J. Rowe
2004-06-23 19:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the proofs
Speaking of Mr Rateliff, when on earth is he going to publish his History of
The Hobbit?
Michael Martinez
2004-06-24 05:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon J. Rowe
Post by Michael Martinez
Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the proofs
Speaking of Mr Rateliff, when on earth is he going to publish his History of
The Hobbit?
I have been told he has other priorities. Presumably, he'll do it when he does it.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-24 00:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
The last sentence ("When THE HOBBIT was first published it was Thrain
son of Thror - the only Thrain at that time conceived - who discovered
the Arkenstone") has been assigned disproportionate importance and
some people feel they need look no further than this to determine the
correctness of the "One Thrain" argument.
Unless evidence were shown that Christopher might be incorrect that would be
the natural reaction. However, further analysis only serves to confirm
Christopher's conclusion or recollection here.
Post by Michael Martinez
And I think it is fair to suggest that Christopher was probably strongly
influenced by his own childhood memories of the story in its
prepublication state (in which there was indisputably only one
Thrain).
Well, that's progress anyway.
Post by Michael Martinez
NOTE: The first version of Thror's map, which does not include any
reference to "Thrain King under the Mountain" was drawn on a page of
the A manuscript. This is, so far as has been ascertained in any
resources published to date, the ONLY version of the map which does
not mention Thrain. This stage was probably written in 1930-31.
Acknowledgement that there was a version of the map prior to #85 in A&I.
More progress and a change from previous discussions. I guess you have been
reading my 'worthless' posts after all.

One point. While there are only three versions of Thror's map widely
available the text of A&I strongly implies that others had been drawn in the
years between that sketch on the earliest surviving manuscript and the two
late versions (#85 & #86). We have no information about what text did or
did not appear on those.

<snip lots of good stuff about the history not directly related to Thrain>
Post by Michael Martinez
Anderson reconstructs the chronology like this: The story was brought
to Stage C by the late spring or early summer of 1936, at which time
Susan Dagnall visited Oxford and acquired the story from Tolkien.
From August, after she suggested he finish the story and submit it to
George Allen & Unwin, to the beginning of October, Tolkien worked on
the Stage E typescript. Sometime in November, 10-year-old Rayner
Unwin was asked to review the book.
Actually it was a bit earlier... some time on or after October 5th 1936 when
A&U acknowledged receiving the manuscript. Rayner read it and his completed
report was date-stamped October 30th.
Post by Michael Martinez
Five maps and an uncertain number of illustrations were submitted
with the book to Allen & Unwin.
That matches my understanding.
Post by Michael Martinez
Anderson suggests the maps included with the submitted manuscript were
"apparently early versions of Thror's Map...and the Wilderland
Map...
Specifically, these were #85 and #84 from A&I.
Post by Michael Martinez
NOTE: The mentioned plate reproduction of Thror's Map (number 85)
contains the following words under the Mountain: "here of old was the
land of Thrain King under the Mountain". This means that Tolkien
submitted a second version of Thror's map, mentioning Thrain as "King
under the Mountain" to the publisher with the original manuscript.
No, #85 WAS the version Tolkien submitted with the manuscript.
Post by Michael Martinez
This second version was drawn vertically, and in the lower-left
corner, Tolkien wrote the legend: "Thror's Map. Copied by Bilbo
Baggins. For moon-runes hold up to a light."
If you look at #85 you will see that it is drawn vertically, has the
specified legend, and has the moon runes showing through from the back. It
is also identified in A&I as the version that A&U asked Tolkien to redraw.
Post by Michael Martinez
George Allen & Unwin accepted THE HOBBIT for publication by December
1936. According to Christopher's explanation of the first
Thror-Thrain mixup, the manuscript submitted to Allen & Unwin
inadvertently switched from Thorin-Thrain-Thror to Thorin-Thror-Thrain
somewhere in the story, and then continued that mistake throughout the
rest of the text.
Again, it is not stated that this was a "mistake". Only that it was
changed. Tolkien may have done it deliberately or once as a mistake and
then decided to keep it. We do not know.
Post by Michael Martinez
This mistake was carried through to the first proof of the book (that is,
whomever typeset the book repeated the mistake, knowing no better),
which was sent to Tolkien between December 4, 1936 and March
15, 1937.
As you note separately below, A through H on February 20th and the remainder
on the 24th.

<snip reference to Tolkien sending redrawn Thror's Map on January 4th>
Post by Michael Martinez
The redrawn, third version of "Thror's Map" included the words: "Here
of old was Thrain King under the Mountain" (this is the standard
Thror's Map).
It was the third of the three maps which are widely available, but again
Hammond & Scull say that he had "already laboured on it for years" by the
time #85 was drawn, suggesting that there may well have been other versions.

In any case, this was A&I #86 - the final map published with the book.
Post by Michael Martinez
According to the preface for Letter 12, Tolkien returned the corrected
proofs for THE HOBBIT to Allen & Unwin in mid-March, 1937.
Presumably including the switch of the names >back< to Thorin son of Thrain
son of Thror.
Post by Michael Martinez
"Conversation with Smaug" includes a detailed rune inscription on a
golden jar which has been translated as: "gold the [? portion obscured
by ladder] Thrain / accursed be the thief."
And the double 'TH' rune symbol of Thorin's father and grandfather.
Post by Michael Martinez
By 1949, according to Christopher Tolkien in THE PEOPLES OF
MIDDLE-EARTH, J.R.R. TOLKIEN had begun working on the appendices for
THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Christopher dates a crucial text, T 4 (version
four of "The Tale of Years" in Appendix B) to the period around August
Seems a reasonable estimate.
Post by Michael Martinez
2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm
of Erebor (the Lonely Mountain), and becomes 'King under
the Mountain'. He lives in friendship with the Men of
Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim.
'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of
Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged.
That is, the history of 'Thrain I' founding Erebor some 400+ years earlier
had not yet emerged. JRRT still conceived of it as having been founded by
Thror. In August of 1949. Directly disproving the idea that Tolkien
intended 'Thrain I' to be the founder of Erebor all the way back in 1937
when 'The Hobbit' was first published.
Post by Michael Martinez
Why did Tolkien change this entry and add an extensive family tree?
Because of the discrepancy with the map. Thrain was not 'King Under the
Mountain' - Thror was. Tolkien's continuing belief in 1949 that Thror
founded Erebor made it impossible for him to have always intended a 'Thrain
I' to have been King there more than 400 years earlier.
Post by Michael Martinez
Because...
In July 1950, Allen & Unwin unexpectedly sent Tolkien proofs for the
second edition of THE HOBBIT (which incorporated the 1947 suggested
changes without Tolkien's advance knowledge).
True, but what does one have to do with the other? As you noted before, the
1947 suggested changes had to do specifically with chapter 5... the riddle
game. They were not the least bit related to Dwarves.
Post by Michael Martinez
THE HOBBIT: I return the proofs herewith. They did not require
much correction, but did need some consideration. The thing took
me much by surprise. It is now a long while since I sent in the
proposed alteration of Chapter V, and tentatively suggested the
slight remodelling of the original HOBBIT. I was then still
engaged in trying to fit on the sequel, which would have been
a simpler task with the alteration, besides saving most of a
chapter in that over-long work. However, I never heard any more
about it at all; and I assumed that alteration of the original
book was ruled out. The sequel now dpeends on the earlier version;
and if the revision is really published, there must follow some
considerable rewriting of the sequel.
I must say that I could wish I had had some hint that (in any
circumstances) this change might be made, before it burst upon
me in page-proof. However, I have now made up my mind to accept
the change and its consequences. The thing is now old enough
for me to take a fairly impartial view, and it seems to me that
the revised version is in itself better, in motive and
narrative -- and certainly would make the sequel (if ever
published) mich more natural.
I did not mean the suggested revision to be printed off; but it
seems to have come out pretty well in the wash.
Clearly, Tolkien noticed a problem regarding the history of Erebor.
Ummm... yes, the aforementioned discrepancy between Thrain having been King
there and the Dwarves being driven out during Thror's reign (before Thrain
could become King). However, nothing in the letter quoted above or the
revisions to chapter 5 touches on that (or Dwarves in general) at all.

Again, 'Thrain I' did not exist yet. He could not have been King of Erebor
more than 400 years before Thror founded it.
Post by Michael Martinez
...For the most part they passed into the North; but
Thrain Nain's son, the king by inheritance, came to
Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, nigh to the eastern eaves
of Mirkwood, and established his realm for a while.
In this text and its accompanying genealogical table
(which I have here redrawn) it is seen that an
important advance had been made from the text T 4
of the Tale of Years, where it was told under
the year 2590 that Thror 'founded the realm of
Erebor' (p. 236): as I said in a note on that entry,
'the history of Thror's ancestors had not yet
emerged'. Here that history is present, but not
yet precisely in the final form; for the names of
'the kings of Durin's folk' in the genealogical
table here run Thorin I: Gloin : Dain I, whereas
Oin : Nain II : Dain I; thus in the present text
Thror is called 'the great-great-grandson of
Thrain [I]'. While the history was at this stage
see p. 252, THE DWARVES.
Yes. Tolkien noticed the discrepancy and corrected it here for LotR by
inventing Thrain I.
Post by Michael Martinez
The second paragraph of Tolkien's prefatory note dealt with the
apparent discrepancy between Thror's Map and the genealogy of Thorin's
family (as provided in the narrative of THE HOBBIT -- THE ANNOTATED
HOBBIT indicates that no changes were made to the narrative to address
Yes. Tolkien added a note to introduce Thrain I into 'The Hobbit' to
explain away the discrepancy on the map. However, as he notes in the
letter, he was not able to devote a great deal of time to 'The Hobbit' while
also preparing LotR for publication. As a result, he overlooked that the
text of The Hobbit shows Erebor being founded in Thror's time. So he then
had to go back in 1966 and clean up the text to conform with the new story
about 'Thrain I'.
Post by Michael Martinez
1) Both versions of Thror's Map submitted to Allen & Unwin were
clearly labelled "Thror's Map", and both clearly included words naming
Thrain as "King under the Mountain". The narrative stipulates that
the map was drawn by Thorin's grandfather (without naming him).
True. However, it must also be noted that both were drawn during the time
that the names of 'Thror' and 'Thrain' were reversed. As established above,
#85 was submitted with the manuscript and #86 before Tolkien received the
proofs from A&U. That is, at the time Tolkien drew BOTH versions (#85 &
#86) 'Thrain' was the name of Thorin's GRANDFATHER. Thorin's grandfather
WAS King Under the Mountain. The maps were thus correct when drawn, but
became incorrect when the names were reversed back.
Post by Michael Martinez
2) When THE HOBBIT was originally submitted to Allen & Unwin, it
contained the Thror-Thrain mixup, but the first map submitted to them
nonetheless properly identified Thror as the maker of the map and
still named Thrain as the old "King under the Mountain".
Interesting, but clearly reaching when compared to the incontrovertible fact
of Thror's founding of Erebor all the way through 1949. Most likely it
referred to the fact that the map was given to Gandalf by Thorin's father...
at that time named Thror. It was Thror's Map... drawn by HIS father Thrain,
who had been King Under the Mountain.
Post by Michael Martinez
3) The second map also correctly identified Thror as its maker and
still included the mention of Thrain as the old "King under the
Mountain", even though Tolkien had gone back and corrected the proofs
to reassert the Thorin-Thrain-Thror relationship.
False. You yourself established above both that this map was submitted on
January 4, 1937 and Tolkien did not even RECEIVE the proofs (much less
correct them) until February 20 & 24. Both versions of the map were drawn
and submitted to A&U while 'Thrain' was the name of the grandfather. Your
own analysis of the dates confirms it despite what you say here.
Post by Michael Martinez
But if the ORIGINAL (pre-submission) story only included one Thrain,
then why did Tolkien include the previously non-existent Thrain the
Old, "King under the Mountain", on the new maps?
He didn't... the map referred to Thorin's grandfather, at that time named
'Thrain'.
Post by Michael Martinez
To assume that the second map was made in accordance with the
erroneous genealogy forces us to assume that Tolkien did not bother to
check his details against the narrative. Worse, we must also assume
that, when Tolkien corrected the name mixup, he decided not to correct
the map to agree with the corrected proofs.
Or simply overlooked it... given that the final map was submitted about a
month and a half before Tolkien even received the proofs.
Post by Michael Martinez
And then there is the matter of Thrain's name on the jar in the color
illustration "Conversation with Smaug". Why was Thrain's name used
and not Thror's?
The double 'TH' rune of BOTH appears on the jar. Clearly linking that
picture to Thorin's father and grandfather rather than a remote ancestor.

<snip long continuing analysis founded on the above conclusions>
Post by Michael Martinez
Clearly, he had realized he had introduced a second Thrain into the
Hobbit story in 1936, an ambiguous ancestor of Thorin's who was not
his father, and Tolkien had to adjust THE LORD OF THE RINGS to
accomodate that fact.
As shown above, you have founded this analysis on a textual history (item 3)
which your own citations disprove. Further, you have ignored the
unavoidable implications of Tolkien still viewing Thror as the founder of
Erebor in 1949. If Tolkien considered Thror the founder in 1949 he COULD
NOT have believed that there was a 'Thrain I' who had been King there more
than 400 years before the kingdom existed. The two concepts are
contradictory.
Michael Martinez
2004-06-24 17:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
The last sentence ("When THE HOBBIT was first published it was Thrain
son of Thror - the only Thrain at that time conceived - who discovered
the Arkenstone") has been assigned disproportionate importance and
some people feel they need look no further than this to determine the
correctness of the "One Thrain" argument.
Unless evidence were shown that Christopher might be incorrect that would be
the natural reaction. However, further analysis only serves to confirm
Christopher's conclusion or recollection here.
Hardly. As usual, you've gotten your facts wrong.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
NOTE: The first version of Thror's map, which does not include any
reference to "Thrain King under the Mountain" was drawn on a page of
the A manuscript. This is, so far as has been ascertained in any
resources published to date, the ONLY version of the map which does
not mention Thrain. This stage was probably written in 1930-31.
Acknowledgement that there was a version of the map prior to #85 in A&I.
More progress and a change from previous discussions. I guess you have been
reading my 'worthless' posts after all.
No, Conrad. Unlike you, I've been consulting authoritative texts. In
the past (2002, 2000), the ANNOTATED HOBBIT had not yet been
published. The history of the maps provided in J.R.R. TOLKIEN: ARTIST
& ILLUSTRATOR disagreed with your claims. You got half lucky. The
second map always had "Here of old was the land of Thrain King under
the Mountain". So, Tolkien had decided that would be the case before
the manuscript was accepted.

Which means the Two Thrains go back BEFORE acceptance.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Anderson reconstructs the chronology like this: The story was brought
to Stage C by the late spring or early summer of 1936, at which time
Susan Dagnall visited Oxford and acquired the story from Tolkien.
From August, after she suggested he finish the story and submit it to
George Allen & Unwin, to the beginning of October, Tolkien worked on
the Stage E typescript. Sometime in November, 10-year-old Rayner
Unwin was asked to review the book.
Actually it was a bit earlier... some time on or after October 5th 1936 when
A&U acknowledged receiving the manuscript. Rayner read it and his completed
report was date-stamped October 30th.
You get a point. I didn't look at the plate of the report in THE
ANNOTATED HOBBIT.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Anderson suggests the maps included with the submitted manuscript were
"apparently early versions of Thror's Map...and the Wilderland
Map...
Specifically, these were #85 and #84 from A&I.
Anderson reproduced the maps in the second edition of THE ANNOTATED
HOBBIT. They are on pages 50 and 51.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
NOTE: The mentioned plate reproduction of Thror's Map (number 85)
contains the following words under the Mountain: "here of old was the
land of Thrain King under the Mountain". This means that Tolkien
submitted a second version of Thror's map, mentioning Thrain as "King
under the Mountain" to the publisher with the original manuscript.
No, #85 WAS the version Tolkien submitted with the manuscript.
The map submitted with the manuscript included the words "Here of old
was the land of Thrain King under the Mountain". This map was the
SECOND VERSION of Thror's Map (the first version being the one drawn
in the original manuscript page).
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
George Allen & Unwin accepted THE HOBBIT for publication by December
1936. According to Christopher's explanation of the first
Thror-Thrain mixup, the manuscript submitted to Allen & Unwin
inadvertently switched from Thorin-Thrain-Thror to Thorin-Thror-Thrain
somewhere in the story, and then continued that mistake throughout the
rest of the text.
Again, it is not stated that this was a "mistake".
READ THE BOOKS, Conrad:

There is no question that the genealogy as first devised in THE
HOBBIT was Thorin Oakenshield - Thrain - Thror (always without
accents). At one point, however, Thror and Thrain were reversed
in my father's typescript, and this survived into the first
proof. Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined
the proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting
this one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror -
Thrain right through the book; but that having done so he then
changed all the occurences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror....
(From "The Council of Elrond (2)", THE TREASON OF ISENGARD, p. 159)

I point you explicitly to "...instead of correcting this one
error...."
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
The redrawn, third version of "Thror's Map" included the words: "Here
of old was Thrain King under the Mountain" (this is the standard
Thror's Map).
It was the third of the three maps which are widely available, but again
Hammond & Scull say that he had "already laboured on it for years" by the
time #85 was drawn, suggesting that there may well have been other versions.
THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, at this point in time, represents the most
exhaustive study of the history of the HOBBIT published to date.
Hammond and Scull's work is not to be treated lightly, but there is
now a more authoritative source on this matter.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm
of Erebor (the Lonely Mountain), and becomes 'King under
the Mountain'. He lives in friendship with the Men of
Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim.
'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of
Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged.
That is, the history of 'Thrain I' founding Erebor some 400+ years earlier
had not yet emerged.
No, that is, "the history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged".
The genealogy had not been devised. Thrain the Old was still in THE
HOBBIT, but at this time, Tolkien had forgotten about him.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Why did Tolkien change this entry and add an extensive family tree?
Because of the discrepancy with the map.
No. It was because of EVERYTHING in THE HOBBIT pertaining to the
history of Thorin's family. The entry which was finally published in
THE LORD OF THE RINGS simply says:

2590 Thror returns to Erebor. Gror his brother goes to the Iron
Hills.

Tolkien had originally sent Dwarves to the Iron Hills (in his LoTR
history) in the 1980-2000 entry. That didn't allow for Dain to be
Thorin's cousin, so Tolkien changed the Iron Hills colonization date
to 2590, sending Thror's brother there.

The history thus became consistent with the UNALTERED TEXT OF THE
HOBBIT. I have repeatedly shown that Tolkien had to extensively
revise the history he was devising for the Dwarves because of THE
HOBBIT. Tolkien acknowledged that in the letters I have cited, and
Christopher acknowledged that in the Foreword to THE RETURN OF THE
SHADOW (I have also cited that passage).
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
I did not mean the suggested revision to be printed off; but it
seems to have come out pretty well in the wash.
Clearly, Tolkien noticed a problem regarding the history of Erebor.
Ummm... yes, the aforementioned discrepancy between Thrain having been King
there and the Dwarves being driven out during Thror's reign (before Thrain
could become King).
As usual, you look at only half the facts and thus miss the entire
picture.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
1) Both versions of Thror's Map submitted to Allen & Unwin were
clearly labelled "Thror's Map", and both clearly included words naming
Thrain as "King under the Mountain". The narrative stipulates that
the map was drawn by Thorin's grandfather (without naming him).
True. However, it must also be noted that both were drawn during the time
that the names of 'Thror' and 'Thrain' were reversed.
Which doesn't explain anything away. It is now crystal clear that
once he started preparing the book for publication, Tolkien ALWAYS
intended an earlier Thrain to be King under the Mountain.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
3) The second map also correctly identified Thror as its maker and
still included the mention of Thrain as the old "King under the
Mountain", even though Tolkien had gone back and corrected the proofs
to reassert the Thorin-Thrain-Thror relationship.
False.
No, Conrad. As usual, you've butched what I wrote. In this case,
"the second map" is "the second map submitted to Allen & Unwin" --
referring back to point 1, where I wrote "both versions of Thror's Map
submitted to Allen & Unwin were clearly labelled 'Thror's Map'...."
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
But if the ORIGINAL (pre-submission) story only included one Thrain,
then why did Tolkien include the previously non-existent Thrain the
Old, "King under the Mountain", on the new maps?
He didn't
He DID, Conrad. He DID.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
And then there is the matter of Thrain's name on the jar in the color
illustration "Conversation with Smaug". Why was Thrain's name used
and not Thror's?
The double 'TH' rune of BOTH appears on the jar. Clearly linking that
picture to Thorin's father and grandfather rather than a remote ancestor.
That there are two "Th" runes underneath the Tengwar inscription
doesn't imply "Thror and Thrain".
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Clearly, he had realized he had introduced a second Thrain into the
Hobbit story in 1936, an ambiguous ancestor of Thorin's who was not
his father, and Tolkien had to adjust THE LORD OF THE RINGS to
accomodate that fact.
As shown above, you have founded this analysis on a textual history (item 3)
which your own citations disprove.
As I have shown above, you have butchered the facts and thrown in more
of your own unfounded assumptions, resulting in your usual desultory
failure to grasp what you are talking about.

Further, you obviously haven't paid attention to the sources I was
citing, as you clearly are relying on outdated information where you
ARE trying to work with facts.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-24 22:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Acknowledgement that there was a version of the map prior to #85 in A&I.
More progress and a change from previous discussions. I guess you have been
reading my 'worthless' posts after all.
No, Conrad. Unlike you, I've been consulting authoritative texts.
Well, whichever. It has led you to finally abandon your oft repeated claim
that;

"The earliest sketch of Thror's map had the words "here of old was the land
of Thrain King under the Mountain" (illustration 85)."

If you had given the quotations I have supplied over the years, showing that
#85 was NOT the earliest sketch, proper consideration you likely would not
have repeated this mistake so many times in the past four years.
Post by Michael Martinez
In the past (2002, 2000), the ANNOTATED HOBBIT had not yet been
published.
It was published in 1988. You are presumably referring to the revised
version. Which was published in 2002.

However, the information about the earlier map appeared in the 1988 edition
and has been available from 'Artist & Illustrator' since 1995, Bibliography
since 1993, and Letters since 1981. Which is how I knew about it in those
earlier (2000 & 2002) discussions.
Post by Michael Martinez
The history of the maps provided in J.R.R. TOLKIEN: ARTIST
& ILLUSTRATOR disagreed with your claims.
No, it does not. It explicitly indicates that #85 was not the first sketch
of the map;

"The first sketch of Thror's Map appears on the earliest surviving scrap of
Hobbit manuscript."
A&I, page 92
Post by Michael Martinez
You got half lucky.
No Michael. I simply knew what I was talking about.
Post by Michael Martinez
The second map always had "Here of old was the land of Thrain King under
the Mountain".
By 'second map' you presumably mean #85.
Post by Michael Martinez
So, Tolkien had decided that would be the case before the manuscript
was accepted.
True. However, at that point in time 'Thrain' was the name of Thorin's
grandfather... who HAD been King under the Mountain.
Post by Michael Martinez
You get a point. I didn't look at the plate of the report in THE
ANNOTATED HOBBIT.
Thank you.

In a prior post Michael had written;
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Anderson suggests the maps included with the submitted manuscript were
"apparently early versions of Thror's Map...and the Wilderland
Map...
Specifically, these were #85 and #84 from A&I.
Anderson reproduced the maps in the second edition of THE ANNOTATED
HOBBIT. They are on pages 50 and 51.
No, those are both versions of Thror's Map. Neither is the Wilderland Map
you referred to above. The map on AH pg 50 is A&I #86, and the one on pg 51
is A&I #85. The Wilderland Map submitted with the manuscript was A&I #84,
as I indicated.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
No, #85 WAS the version Tolkien submitted with the manuscript.
The map submitted with the manuscript included the words "Here of old
was the land of Thrain King under the Mountain".
Yes. Those words appear on A&I #85. Which was the version submitted with
the manuscript.
Post by Michael Martinez
This map was the SECOND VERSION of Thror's Map (the first version
being the one drawn in the original manuscript page).
As I explained before, there were very likely additional versions of the map
between these that you label 'first' and 'second'. If nothing else there is
a second small sketch on the same manuscript page as the first map... and
A&I states that Tolkien had worked on it for years between that first map
and #85. Unless he spent years making minor adjustments to that map on the
manuscript page there must have been additional maps in between. Thus I
prefer to identify them by their numbers rather than 'second' and 'third'.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Again, it is not stated that this was a "mistake".
Ahem. You snipped out;

"Tolkien may have done it deliberately or once as a mistake and then decided
to keep it."
Post by Michael Martinez
There is no question that the genealogy as first devised in THE
HOBBIT was Thorin Oakenshield - Thrain - Thror (always without
accents). At one point, however, Thror and Thrain were reversed
in my father's typescript, and this survived into the first
proof. Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined
the proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting
this one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror -
Thrain right through the book; but that having done so he then
changed all the occurences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror....
(From "The Council of Elrond (2)", THE TREASON OF ISENGARD, p. 159)
Precisely what I described in the text you snipped out. Yes, CT names the
initial reversal definitely a mistake and the continuation of it throughout
deliberate (in contradiction of your statement that it was copied throughout
as a mistake), but we don't have that detailed analysis to refer to. We
don't know the details. Only what is said here. Which concurs with my
description above but states it definitively.
Post by Michael Martinez
THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, at this point in time, represents the most
exhaustive study of the history of the HOBBIT published to date.
Arguably. Bibliography contains much more detail from late 1936 on, but
does not include the details of the earlier development included in AH. For
the actual publication process I'd say that Bibliography is the superior
reference. Of course, since Anderson worked on both there are many
similarities.
Post by Michael Martinez
Hammond and Scull's work is not to be treated lightly, but there is
now a more authoritative source on this matter.
True, but irrelevant. THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT does not contradict what Hammond
& Scull said in A&I. Nowhere in AH does Anderson say that there were only
three versions of the map.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
That is, the history of 'Thrain I' founding Erebor some 400+ years earlier
had not yet emerged.
No, that is, "the history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged".
Thrain I WASN'T one of Thror's ancestors? Christopher's statement that the
history had not yet emerged WASN'T predicated on Thror being the founder of
Erebor?

Here's the text;
"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's ancestors
had not yet emerged."

Clearly, CT links the two together. His father wrote that Thror found
Erebor. Therefor Christopher concludes that the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged.

Why would he conclude that? What about Thror founding Erebor could possibly
lead CT to think that the history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged?
Could it be that in that history Erebor was founded by 'Thrain I'? Seems
pretty inescapable... if Tolkien had Thror as the founder then the story of
'Thrain I' being the founder had not yet emerged... in 1949. Twelve years
after 'The Hobbit' was published.
Post by Michael Martinez
The genealogy had not been devised. Thrain the Old was still in THE
HOBBIT, but at this time, Tolkien had forgotten about him.
So... your view is that Tolkien conceived of 'Thrain I' as the founder of
Erebor in 1937, but then forgot about this and made Thror the founder in
1949?

Doesn't it make a bit more sense to conclude, as Christopher states, that
Thror being named the founder in 1949 shows that the story of the 'Thrain I'
and Thror's other ancestors had not yet emerged?
Post by Michael Martinez
The history thus became consistent with the UNALTERED TEXT OF THE
HOBBIT.
And yet Tolkien felt the need to put an explanatory note into The Hobbit and
then alter the text in 1966. Both to make it consistent with the new story
of 'Thrain I'.
Post by Michael Martinez
I have repeatedly shown that Tolkien had to extensively
revise the history he was devising for the Dwarves because of THE
HOBBIT. Tolkien acknowledged that in the letters I have cited,
Ah, I think I see. You are claiming that the changes Tolkien spoke of
having to make to LotR on account of A&U incorporating his 1947 alterations
into The Hobbit were the changes to the history of Erebor? However, that
makes no sense... the 1947 change was to chapter 5, the riddle game - which
the Dwarves were not even present for. It had nothing to do with Dwarves.
Even if it somehow did... why would ANY text change in 'The Hobbit' force
Tolkien to revise Lord of the Rings to include 'Thrain I' as founder of
Erebor when you claim that was the situation all along?
Post by Michael Martinez
and Christopher acknowledged that in the Foreword to THE
RETURN OF THE SHADOW (I have also cited that passage).
Christopher does not say anywhere in that foreword that JRRT had to 'revise
the history he was devising for the Dwarves because of The Hobbit'. He does
say that various elements of the Dwarven history/background came originally
from TH and that TH 'got drawn into Middle-earth - and transformed it'...
but nothing about his father having to redo the history of the Dwarves.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
True. However, it must also be noted that both were drawn during the time
that the names of 'Thror' and 'Thrain' were reversed.
Which doesn't explain anything away. It is now crystal clear that
once he started preparing the book for publication, Tolkien ALWAYS
intended an earlier Thrain to be King under the Mountain.
Michael. The ONLY evidence for an earlier Thrain in the original version
which has EVER existed were the words on the map. Those words were written
during the time that the names were reversed. Meaning that if Tolkien drew
the map to be consistent with the text then 'Thrain' was the name of
Thorin's grandfather. Who had been King under the Mountain. Just as he is
described on the map.

Michael had written in an earlier post;
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
3) The second map also correctly identified Thror as its maker and
still included the mention of Thrain as the old "King under the
Mountain", even though Tolkien had gone back and corrected the proofs
to reassert the Thorin-Thrain-Thror relationship.
False.
No, Conrad. As usual, you've butched what I wrote. In this case,
"the second map" is "the second map submitted to Allen & Unwin" --
referring back to point 1, where I wrote "both versions of Thror's Map
submitted to Allen & Unwin were clearly labelled 'Thror's Map'...."
This is true. Your other claim above is still false. The 'second map
submitted' (#86) was sent to A&U before Tolkien even received the proofs.
Not after he had corrected them as you assert in '3' above. Therefor it was
drawn while the names were reversed.

That is clearly explained, with the exact dates, in the text that you
snipped out.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
He didn't
He DID, Conrad. He DID.
Did not! Did too! Did not! Did too!

Again, you snip out my full explanation.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
The double 'TH' rune of BOTH appears on the jar. Clearly linking that
picture to Thorin's father and grandfather rather than a remote ancestor.
That there are two "Th" runes underneath the Tengwar inscription
doesn't imply "Thror and Thrain".
It doesn't? Tolkien DID identify that symbol as the initials of Thror and
Thrain, did he not? Are you saying that someone just came along and
randomly put 'TH TH' on the jar for no reason? Which just coincidentally
also appears on Thror's Map?
Michael Martinez
2004-06-25 04:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Acknowledgement that there was a version of the map prior to #85 in A&I.
More progress and a change from previous discussions. I guess you have been
reading my 'worthless' posts after all.
No, Conrad. Unlike you, I've been consulting authoritative texts.
Well, whichever. It has led you to finally abandon your oft repeated claim
that;
"The earliest sketch of Thror's map had the words "here of old was the land
of Thrain King under the Mountain" (illustration 85)."
Nope. Any map which had those words on it had those words on it.
Period. End of discussion on this point. Clearly, however, you're
once again taking what I said OUT OF CONTEXT (why am I NOT surprised)
and misrepresenting what was said.

Here is a non-inflammatory offer compromise: We can agree that all
along I was referring to the EARLIER SKETCH ASSOCIATED WITH THE
PULBISHED BOOK (since I have all along been discussing ONLY the
published HOBBIT, not the incomplete version which Susan Dagnall read
and recommended BE completed).
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
In the past (2002, 2000), the ANNOTATED HOBBIT had not yet been
published.
It was published in 1988. You are presumably referring to the revised
version. Which was published in 2002.
Yes, yes.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
However, the information about the earlier map appeared in the 1988 edition
and has been available from 'Artist & Illustrator' since 1995, Bibliography
since 1993, and Letters since 1981. Which is how I knew about it in those
earlier (2000 & 2002) discussions.
You REALLY need to go back and read the REVISED ANNOTATED HOBBIT.
Start at the front of the book. Because you are once again CLUELESS
about what the hell I am talking about.

Douglas Anderson has published the most complete, exhaustive, and
authoritative study of the HOBBIT manuscripts (and their accompanying
illustrations) to date.

Hammond and Scull did great work. It remains of value. But their
place in this particular discussion has been taken by Anderson. And I
believe, based on my conversations with Wayne Hammond through the
years, that he would feel no compunction in agreeing with that much.

Now, hopefully, Mr. Hammond hasn't finished his contributions to
Tolkien research. I look forward to seeing more.

But you're relying on outdated information -- information, btw, which
I stand by with respect to the context of my previous arguments with
you.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
The history of the maps provided in J.R.R. TOLKIEN: ARTIST
& ILLUSTRATOR disagreed with your claims.
No, it does not.
Yes, it does, because you are merely twisting both what I SAID and
what THEY SAID. I *NEVER* wrote about the map on the first
manuscript.

NEVER. You have always lied and misattributed things with respect to
this point.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
So, Tolkien had decided that would be the case before the manuscript
was accepted.
True. However, at that point in time 'Thrain' was the name of Thorin's
grandfather... who HAD been King under the Mountain.
WRONG, Conrad. I have already checked with Douglas Anderson. I was
ON THE VERGE of conceding the whole damned argument to you yesterday.
But he blew you out of the water.

I asked him if he had found any occurrences of "Arkenstone of Thror"
in the manuscript submitted to the publisher (and page proofs). He
said he did not remember seeing anything like that, and he had paid
particular attention to the name mixup when consulting the
manuscripts.

Had he found something like that, I would have immediately agreed that
the whole thing was due to the mixup.

However, it CANNOT BE SO. That is because J.R.R. Tolkien didn't
switch the names when writing about the Arkenstone. All but ONE of
the published Arkenstone passages were in chapters which he wrote
specifically after agreeing to submit the book to Allen & Unwin.

Based on ALL the available evidence, it is apparent that Tolkien
decided AT THAT TIME to add a second Thrain.

Why?

No idea. That is just what the facts all point to.

So, unless you can come up with something new and RELEVANT, we are
done. Any further followups from you -- they only repeat your
erroneous miscitations and arguments -- will be met with the usual
sneers and derision.

I suggest you take some time and READ about this (I KNOW you bought
the revised ANNOTATED HOBBIT -- so I am assuming you still have it)
and try to give it some thought.

This is a RARE opportunity for you, Conrad. If you want to convince
me, all you need is the right proof.

You ain't got it, and foolishly repeating your ineffectual arguments
from the past ain't gonna do the job.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-25 09:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
"The earliest sketch of Thror's map had the words "here of old was
the land of Thrain King under the Mountain" (illustration 85)."
Nope. Any map which had those words on it had those words on it.
Period. End of discussion on this point.
And, since I have been agreeing all along that maps #85 & #86 had those
words on them, this is just your usual attempt to hide mistakes rather than
confront them. The EARLIEST sketch of the map, the one on the manuscript
page, did NOT. Therefor your assertion quoted above was false.
Illustration #85 was NOT the earliest sketch.
Post by Michael Martinez
Here is a non-inflammatory offer compromise: We can agree that all
along I was referring to the EARLIER SKETCH ASSOCIATED WITH
THE PULBISHED BOOK (since I have all along been discussing
ONLY the published HOBBIT, not the incomplete version which Susan
Dagnall read and recommended BE completed).
Martinez obfuscation type 17, the old 'redefine what you meant' dodge. You
were claiming that #85 was the first map >period<. To make that absolutely
clear;

I had once written;
"The map was drawn while The Hobbit was still largely unWRITTEN."

And you replied;
"Completely incorrect. The map was drawn (twice) after the book had been
accepted for publication."

Do you not now acknowledge that my 'Completely incorrect' statement above
was, in fact, correct? Also, the map was drawn ONCE after the book had been
accepted for publication (#86)... #85 was submitted along with the
manuscript prior to acceptance. Neither was the first version of the map.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
However, the information about the earlier map appeared in the 1988
edition and has been available from 'Artist & Illustrator' since 1995,
Bibliography since 1993, and Letters since 1981. Which is how I
knew about it in those earlier (2000 & 2002) discussions.
You REALLY need to go back and read the REVISED ANNOTATED
HOBBIT. Start at the front of the book. Because you are once again
CLUELESS about what the hell I am talking about.
Martinez obfuscation number ONE - flame.
Post by Michael Martinez
Douglas Anderson has published the most complete, exhaustive, and
authoritative study of the HOBBIT manuscripts (and their accompanying
illustrations) to date.
Martinez obfuscation number 4 - start arguing something which has not been
disputed.

Can you explain how 'revised Annotated Hobbit having the most complete study
of the Hobbit manuscripts' has ANYTHING to do with whether the information
about the earlier version of Thror's Map was available before it came out?
Fine, it IS the most comprehensive study of the Hobbit manuscripts
available. I SAID that in the post you are replying to. It has nothing to
do with the fact that this information about the map was available long
before that book came out. You don't want to address that mistake so you
berate me for 'disagreeing' with something I actually stated to be true.
Post by Michael Martinez
Hammond and Scull did great work. It remains of value. But their
place in this particular discussion has been taken by Anderson. And I
believe, based on my conversations with Wayne Hammond through the
years, that he would feel no compunction in agreeing with that much.
But you're relying on outdated information -- information, btw, which
I stand by with respect to the context of my previous arguments with
you.
Ahem... some of that 'outdated information' comes FROM Anderson. Who wrote
Bibliography WITH Hammond.

Regardless, the point at hand appears in the Revised Annotated Hobbit ALSO.
This is not a contradiction between that work and the earlier ones. ALL of
them specified that there was an earlier map than #85.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
True. However, at that point in time 'Thrain' was the name of Thorin's
grandfather... who HAD been King under the Mountain.
WRONG, Conrad. I have already checked with Douglas Anderson. I
was ON THE VERGE of conceding the whole damned argument to
you yesterday. But he blew you out of the water.
Heh. I see. I'm 'completely blown out of the water' by something that
Wayne told you and which no one else has seen. Well, I guess we'll just
have to take your word for it unless Wayne puts in an appearance (I'm not
going to hassle him while he's working on the two book set).
Post by Michael Martinez
I asked him if he had found any occurrences of "Arkenstone of Thror"
in the manuscript submitted to the publisher (and page proofs). He
said he did not remember seeing anything like that, and he had paid
particular attention to the name mixup when consulting the
manuscripts.
Yet Christopher said that ALL occurences of 'Thrain' and 'Thror' were
reversed. So which is it?

Did Thorin still say, "the Arkenstone of my father" while the names were
reversed? His father, named THROR at that time? Could it not be that Wayne
does not remember 'Arkenstone of Thror' because Tolkien did not name the
owner directly until later revisions? Using only "my father's" and "of my
father" up until then?

Did Wayne say that he DID remember "Arkenstone of Thrain" from the time when
the names were reversed? Even if he did... could that not mean that it
belonged to Thorin's >grandfather< Thrain?


And all of that goes nowhere because Tolkien still had Thror founding Erebor
all the way up through 1949. Making it impossible for anyone to have been
"King under the Mountain" before Thror. Ergo, the map cannot have referred
to Thror's ancestor 'Thrain I' prior to 1949. Only one Thrain existed in
1937. Just as Christopher said.
Michael Martinez
2004-06-25 16:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
"The earliest sketch of Thror's map had the words "here of old was
the land of Thrain King under the Mountain" (illustration 85)."
Nope. Any map which had those words on it had those words on it.
Period. End of discussion on this point.
And, since I have been agreeing all along that maps #85 & #86 had those
words on them, this is just your usual attempt to hide mistakes rather than
confront them. The EARLIEST sketch of the map, the one on the manuscript
page, did NOT. Therefor your assertion quoted above was false.
Until such time as you drop these lie-and-bullshit tactics, you are
considered to have conceded every point.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-25 17:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
Until such time as you drop these lie-and-bullshit tactics, you are
considered to have conceded every point.
Martinez obfuscation number two... when all else fails state that the proof
against your claims is 'all lies' and declare victory.
Odysseus
2004-06-26 19:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
[snip]
[...] it must also be noted that both were drawn during the time
that the names of 'Thror' and 'Thrain' were reversed. As established above,
#85 was submitted with the manuscript and #86 before Tolkien received the
proofs from A&U. That is, at the time Tolkien drew BOTH versions (#85 &
#86) 'Thrain' was the name of Thorin's GRANDFATHER. Thorin's grandfather
WAS King Under the Mountain. The maps were thus correct when drawn, but
became incorrect when the names were reversed back.
If so, the phrase "of old" would seem a curious expression for
describing a reign at most a single generation prior to the making of
the map. Judging from the chronology in Appendix B to LotR the map
cannot have been drawn more than 75 years after the Kingdom under the
Mountain was destroyed. (Thráin -- i.e. Thorin's father, by whatever
name --lived five years more than this, but I very much doubt he was
accorded the opportunity to draw a map including moon-runes while
Sauron's prisoner in Dol Guldur.)

Now Tolkien's _Hobbit_-era idea of Dwarvish lifespans might
conceivably have been that they were very much longer than they later
became, allowing that one-generation interval to have begun in the
distant past as implied by "of old", but FWIW (I haven't read the
_Annotated Hobbit_) I'm not aware of any such indications in his
early writings.
--
Odysseus
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-26 19:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Odysseus
If so, the phrase "of old" would seem a curious expression for
describing a reign at most a single generation prior to the making of
the map.
"Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time..."
TH, An Unexpected Party

If Thorin can refer to his grandfather's time as 'long ago' why would it be
unreasonable for 'of old' to have been put on the map?
Post by Odysseus
Judging from the chronology in Appendix B to LotR the map cannot
have been drawn more than 75 years after the Kingdom under the
Mountain was destroyed.
Seventy-five years would not be considered 'of old'? Further, that was the
END of his reign. The start was 180 years earlier... and that was certainly
'of old'.

The relevant dates are;
2590 Thror returns to Erebor.
2770 Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor.
2790 Thror slain by an Orc in Moria.
2845 Thrain the Dwarf is imprisoned in Dol Guldur
2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire.

I'd actually estimate that the map was probably drawn shortly before 2790
when Thror was getting 'a bit off'... 200 years after the kingdom was
resettled (or FOUNDED in the original version).

In any case... that's a matter of interpreting the terminology. What the
words might or might not mean.

The fact that Tolkien wrote in 1949 that Thror was the founder of Erebor
precludes the existence of any earlier Kings there >unless< we assume that
Tolkien somehow forgot about them and made a mistake. That the original
text ALSO shows Erebor first being settled in Thorin's grandfather's time
makes that seem exceedingly unlikely.
Odysseus
2004-06-27 20:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Odysseus
If so, the phrase "of old" would seem a curious expression for
describing a reign at most a single generation prior to the making of
the map.
"Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time..."
TH, An Unexpected Party
If Thorin can refer to his grandfather's time as 'long ago' why would it be
unreasonable for 'of old' to have been put on the map?
Not that I think this point deserves a great deal of belabouring, but
"long ago" in the context of a conversation about someone's family
doesn't give me the impression of nearly so great antiquity as "of
old" in writing.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Odysseus
Judging from the chronology in Appendix B to LotR the map cannot
have been drawn more than 75 years after the Kingdom under the
Mountain was destroyed.
Seventy-five years would not be considered 'of old'? Further, that was the
END of his reign. The start was 180 years earlier... and that was certainly
'of old'.
Again, that's not the way the phrase strikes me -- for example 'The
USA of old fought two wars against the UK' seems very peculiar -- but
I could well be reading more into it than was intended on the map's
legend; a whiff of archaism from the expression itself may be giving
it unwarranted connotations in my mind.
--
Odysseus
Michael Martinez
2004-06-28 03:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Odysseus
Again, that's not the way the phrase strikes me -- for example 'The
USA of old fought two wars against the UK' seems very peculiar -- but
I could well be reading more into it than was intended on the map's
legend; a whiff of archaism from the expression itself may be giving
it unwarranted connotations in my mind.
You are NOT reading too much into it. As I have shown, Tolkien
referred to Dain's halls (after he succeeded Thorin as King under the
Mountain) was "ancient halls". "Here of old" and "ancient", as well
as the fact that Thorin's family was extended to include many other
Dwarves in the first edition of THE HOOBIT, underscore the fact that
Tolkien clearly had two Thrains in mind when he sent the story to the
publisher.
Stan Brown
2004-06-28 03:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Odysseus
Not that I think this point deserves a great deal of belabouring, but
"long ago" in the context of a conversation about someone's family
doesn't give me the impression of nearly so great antiquity as "of
old" in writing.
It may be worth remembering that Thorin more than once used "of old"
in speaking to refer to the time _after_ his grandfather's expulsion
by Smaug. He said "Lock nor bar may hinder the return spoken of old"
(or something like it) in "A Warm Welcome" when the Wood-elves told
the Master that Thorin & Co. were escaped prisoners of their king.

Granted, that's not in writing; but still it sounds like "of old" in
/The Hobbit/ doesn't mean "a few centuries ago" but just "some time
ago".
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Tar-Elenion
2004-06-28 04:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Odysseus
Not that I think this point deserves a great deal of belabouring, but
"long ago" in the context of a conversation about someone's family
doesn't give me the impression of nearly so great antiquity as "of
old" in writing.
It may be worth remembering that Thorin more than once used "of old"
in speaking to refer to the time _after_ his grandfather's expulsion
by Smaug. He said "Lock nor bar may hinder the return spoken of old"
(or something like it) in "A Warm Welcome" when the Wood-elves told
the Master that Thorin & Co. were escaped prisoners of their king.
Granted, that's not in writing; but still it sounds like "of old" in
/The Hobbit/ doesn't mean "a few centuries ago" but just "some time
ago".
Uses of "of old" in The Hobbit:

'I could not say,' said Elrond, 'but one may guess that your trolls had
plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in
some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are
still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of
the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.'

If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for
silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager
for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of
old.

They still throve on the trade that came up the great river from the
South and was carted past the falls to their town; but in the great
days, when Dale in the North was rich and prosperous, they had been
wealthy and powerful, and there had been fleets of boats on the waters,
and some were filled with gold and some with warriors in armour, and
there had been wars and deeds which were now only a legend.

'We have none,' said Thorin, and it was true enough: their knives had
been taken from them by the wood-elves, and the great sword Orcrist too.
Bilbo had his short sword, hidden as usual, but he said nothing about
that. 'We have no need of weapons, who return at last to our own as
spoken of old. Nor could we fight against so many. Take us to your
master!'

'It is true that we were wrongfully waylaid by the Elven-king and
imprisoned without cause as we journeyed back to our own land,' answered
Thorin. 'But lock nor bar may hinder the homecoming spoken of old. Nor
is this town in the Wood-elves' realm.'

'Certainly, O Thorin Thrain's son Thror's son!' was what he said. 'You
must claim your own. The hour is at hand, spoken of old.'

'Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that
dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his
people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare
approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the
warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but
young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong strong. Thief in the
Shadows!' he gloated.

'Now I am the chief of the great ravens of the Mountain. We are few, but
we remember still the king that was of old. Most of my people are
abroad, for there are great tidings in the South - some are tidings of
joy to you, and some you will not think so good.'

'So now they began to labour hard in fortifying the main entrance, and
in remaking the road that led from it. Tools were to be found in plenty
that the miners and quarriers and builders of old had used; and at such
work the dwarves were still very skilled.'

'I am Bard, and by my hand was the dragon slain and your treasure
delivered. Is that not a matter that concerns you? Moreover I am by
right descent the heir of Girion of Dale, and in your hoard is mingled
much of the wealth of his halls and town, which of old Smaug stole.'

'At the least he shall deliver one twelfth portion of the treasure unto
Bard, as the dragon-slayer, and as the heir of Girion. From that portion
Bard will himself contribute to the aid of Esgaroth; but if Thorin would
have the friendship and honour of the lands about, as his sires had of
old, then he will give also somewhat of his own for the comfort of the
men of the Lake.'
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
TeaLady (Mari C.)
2004-07-05 14:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tar-Elenion
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Odysseus
Not that I think this point deserves a great deal of
belabouring, but "long ago" in the context of a
conversation about someone's family doesn't give me the
impression of nearly so great antiquity as "of old" in
writing.
It may be worth remembering that Thorin more than once used
"of old" in speaking to refer to the time _after_ his
grandfather's expulsion by Smaug.
snipt a bit
Post by Tar-Elenion
Post by Stan Brown
Granted, that's not in writing; but still it sounds like
"of old" in /The Hobbit/ doesn't mean "a few centuries ago"
but just "some time ago".
'I could not say,' said Elrond, 'but one may guess that your
trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the
remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of
the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten
treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the
mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.'
If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure,
especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard
was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet
as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old.
snipt a whole bunch of good cites regarding use "of old"

The impression I have, both in LoTR and TH, is that the use "of
old" refers to a time past, another era, another way of life,
and this does not depend so much on passage of physical time as
it does on the passage of a way of life. Depending on the
speaker, and the context, it could be as short a time as a few
generations ago, or as long ago as an age, or more. I notice
that the longer-lived the speaker, the further back "of old"
seemed to refer - for men and hobbits, it would be a relatively
short time; a bit longer for dwarves; quite a ways back for
elves. And even among men and elves there would be differences
based on longevity (Aragorn would refer back further than
Barliman when using the term, and Galadriel would also mean
further back in time than Legolas, when using the same term).

This is, of course, a meaning I see, not necessarily that which
was intended by Tolkien.
--
TeaLady / mari conroy

Rainbow Canyon is back
Michael Martinez
2004-06-27 21:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Odysseus
If so, the phrase "of old" would seem a curious expression for
describing a reign at most a single generation prior to the making of
the map.
"Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time..."
TH, An Unexpected Party
If Thorin can refer to his grandfather's time as 'long ago' why would it be
unreasonable for 'of old' to have been put on the map?
Since "long ago" was a long time (well before Bilbo was born) before
Thorin met Bilbo, and since the map had been made and indeterminant
number of years before (possibly no earlier than 2790), your argument
is (as usual) flawed.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Odysseus
Judging from the chronology in Appendix B to LotR the map cannot
have been drawn more than 75 years after the Kingdom under the
Mountain was destroyed.
Seventy-five years would not be considered 'of old'? Further, that was the
END of his reign. The start was 180 years earlier... and that was certainly
'of old'.
The relevant dates are;
2590 Thror returns to Erebor.
2770 Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor.
2790 Thror slain by an Orc in Moria.
2845 Thrain the Dwarf is imprisoned in Dol Guldur
2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire.
I'd actually estimate that the map was probably drawn shortly before 2790
when Thror was getting 'a bit off'... 200 years after the kingdom was
resettled (or FOUNDED in the original version).
In any case... that's a matter of interpreting the terminology. What the
words might or might not mean.
The fact that Tolkien wrote in 1949 that Thror was the founder of Erebor
precludes the existence of any earlier Kings there >unless< we assume that
Tolkien somehow forgot about them and made a mistake.
We know for a fact that Tolkien forgot the details of THE HOBBIT's
Dwarf genealogy while he was working on "The Council of Elrond".

Nor do we have any indication that he consulted THE HOBBIT in 1949,
two years after the last time we know that he DID do anything with the
book.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
...That the original text ALSO shows Erebor first being settled in Thorin's
grandfather's time makes that seem exceedingly unlikely.
The original text does NOT show Erebor first being settled in the time
of Thorin's grandfather.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-28 23:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
We know for a fact that Tolkien forgot the details of THE HOBBIT's
Dwarf genealogy while he was working on "The Council of Elrond".
Yes, he reversed the names again. That is a very different thing than
forgetting about the very existence of 'Kings under the Mountain' before
Thror. It is easy to switch the names around (especially given the way they
had flip-flopped in the past), but forgetting when the kingdom was founded
and who did it? If it was 'Thrain I' all along why would Tolkien suddenly
make this 'mistake' of thinking it was Thror? Where would such a concept
come from if he'd always thought it was Thrain I in the past?
Michael Martinez
2004-06-29 17:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
We know for a fact that Tolkien forgot the details of THE HOBBIT's
Dwarf genealogy while he was working on "The Council of Elrond".
Yes, he reversed the names again. That is a very different thing than
forgetting about the very existence of 'Kings under the Mountain' before
Thror.
Yeah, right. Of course. How silly of me. You've made it all SO
clear now. Forgetting ONE thing is not at all similar to forgetting
TWO things. No, that would simply be too inconvenient, wouldn't it?
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
It is easy to switch the names around (especially given the way they
had flip-flopped in the past), but forgetting when the kingdom was founded
and who did it? If it was 'Thrain I' all along why would Tolkien suddenly
make this 'mistake' of thinking it was Thror?
No one said it WAS Thrain I all along.

Of course, Tolkien made more than one mistake with respect to the
history portrayed in the first edition of THE HOBBIT when he was
preparing the materials for the LoTR Appendices.

For example, he didn't include Thorin's brother in the first genealogy
(the unnamed brother was referred to in the chapter "The Return
Journey".

We must suppose THAT omission proves that Tolkien didn't mention eggs
in THE HOBBIT, too?

And then there is the fact that the 2590 entry says Thror "lives in
friendship with the Men of Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim".
What, Dale already existed then?

But Thorin says, "They built the merry town of Dale there in those
days." Wait! This is a DISCREPANCY! And yet, CLEARLY Tolkien
remembered every detail of THE HOBBIT without checking when he wrote
the T 4 entry for the year 2590, didn't he?

Sure, Conrad. You're right. Everything you say makes absolutely
PERFECT sense.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-29 22:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
For example, he didn't include Thorin's brother in the first genealogy
(the unnamed brother was referred to in the chapter "The Return
Journey".
<rolls eyes in disgust>

Presumably you are refering to;

"Fili and Kili had fallen defending him [Thorin] with shield and body, for
he was their mother's elder brother."

It being you, I'd guess that you are assuming that 'elder brother'
absolutely MUST mean 'the older of her brothers' rather than 'her brother,
who was older than her'.

This is clearly an assumption, and in my opinion a rather bad one. It
requires that Tolkien then made the 'mistake' you refer to above and also
calls into question Dain's right to the throne (unless the hypothetical
brother was a hypothetically dead hypothetical brother). Throw in the
numerous texts about the history of that particular family with NO reference
to a brother and it is absurd for you to be stating this strained
interpretation as an absolute.
Post by Michael Martinez
And then there is the fact that the 2590 entry says Thror "lives in
friendship with the Men of Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim".
What, Dale already existed then?
But Thorin says, "They built the merry town of Dale there in those
days." Wait! This is a DISCREPANCY! And yet, CLEARLY Tolkien
remembered every detail of THE HOBBIT without checking when he
wrote the T 4 entry for the year 2590, didn't he?
Or maybe Tolkien was projecting events beyond 2590 there... the kingdom was
founded in 2590 and after that Thror dwelt in peace with the men whose
settlements had been spreading up the river. Heck, Dale >could< have first
been settled in 2590 and then even YOU couldn't make a discrepancy out of
it.
No Spam
2004-07-08 21:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
For example, he didn't include Thorin's brother in the first genealogy
(the unnamed brother was referred to in the chapter "The Return
Journey".
<rolls eyes in disgust>
Presumably you are refering to;
"Fili and Kili had fallen defending him [Thorin] with shield and body, for
he was their mother's elder brother."
It being you, I'd guess that you are assuming that 'elder brother'
absolutely MUST mean 'the older of her brothers' rather than 'her brother,
who was older than her'.
You would be guessing wrong, as usual. Tolkien doesn't use the
expression "elder brother" even once in THE LORD OF THE RINGS, so any
guesswork on possible meanings and contexts for "elder brother" from
you is rather meaningless.

The passage, as originally written, did not preclude a younger brother
for Dis. And, as it turns out, Tolkien decided that the second
brother would, in fact, be younger than her.

So, no assumptions are required.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by Michael Martinez
And then there is the fact that the 2590 entry says Thror "lives in
friendship with the Men of Dale, who are nearly akin to the Rohirrim".
What, Dale already existed then?
But Thorin says, "They built the merry town of Dale there in those
days." Wait! This is a DISCREPANCY! And yet, CLEARLY Tolkien
remembered every detail of THE HOBBIT without checking when he
wrote the T 4 entry for the year 2590, didn't he?
Or maybe Tolkien was projecting events beyond 2590 there... the kingdom was
founded in 2590 and after that Thror dwelt in peace with the men whose
settlements had been spreading up the river. Heck, Dale >could< have first
been settled in 2590 and then even YOU couldn't make a discrepancy out of
it.
Tolkien never provided a date for the founding of Dale. All you are
doing is heaping invalid assumption upon invalid assumption.

Tolkien rewrote the appendix material to comply with THE HOBBIT's
family history for Durin's Line.

He clearly felt, in 1950, that minimal alteration was required for THE
HOBBIT, whereas he introduced substantial changes and additions to THE
LORD OF THE RINGS to make it consistent with THE HOBBIT.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-07-08 21:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by No Spam
The passage, as originally written, did not preclude a younger brother
for Dis. And, as it turns out, Tolkien decided that the second
brother would, in fact, be younger than her.
Should there actually be any evidence to prove these statements you are
welcome to provide it. As it stands, it looks like more of your invention /
radical interpretation falsely stated as what "Tolkien decided".
Post by No Spam
He clearly felt, in 1950, that minimal alteration was required for THE
HOBBIT, whereas he introduced substantial changes and additions to
THE LORD OF THE RINGS to make it consistent with THE HOBBIT.
He clearly STATED that he did not have much time to work on The Hobbit
because he was busy getting LotR published. I'll take the explanation
Tolkien himself gave over your supposed ability to percieve how he "felt"
any day.
No Spam
2004-07-09 04:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by No Spam
The passage, as originally written, did not preclude a younger brother
for Dis. And, as it turns out, Tolkien decided that the second
brother would, in fact, be younger than her.
Younger than her elder brother. Ho, hum.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by No Spam
He clearly felt, in 1950, that minimal alteration was required for THE
HOBBIT, whereas he introduced substantial changes and additions to
THE LORD OF THE RINGS to make it consistent with THE HOBBIT.
He clearly STATED that he did not have much time to work on The Hobbit
because he was busy getting LotR published. I'll take the explanation
Tolkien himself gave over your supposed ability to percieve how he "felt"
any day.
Conrad, you NEVER take anything Tolkien said. You twist and pervert
it and misconstrue everything.

His comment in Letter 130 (14 September 1950) came over a full month
after he had returned the proofs to Allen & Unwin (1 August 1950), and
what he claimed he had no time for was to rewrite THE LORD OF THE
RINGS with respect to Chapter Five, "Riddles in the Dark", of THE
HOBBIT:

130 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 14 September 1950
[Further consideration led Tolkien to decide that an explanatory
note would definitely be needed in the new edition.]

I have decided to accept the existence of both versions of Chapter
Five, so far as the sequel goes -- though I have no time at the
moment to rewrite that at the required points. I enclose,
therefore, a copy of the briefest form of the prefatory note:
which is intended as copy, if you should think it well to use
it in the reprint.

In fact, this all came about AFTER Allen & Unwin had REJECTED THE LORD
OF THE RINGS (see preamble to Letter 128), so he had no publisher for
the sequel at the time anyway.

So, try and get your facts straight. At least I had the poor excuse
of posting an unfinished sentence.
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-07-09 16:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by No Spam
Younger than her elder brother. Ho, hum.
Ok, I found some time to look it up. Thorin's younger brother Frerin
appears in the genealogy in the appendix. I had forgotten that.

That helps your contention that Tolkien was describing Thorin as the elder
of Dis's brothers, but he could still have been saying simply that Thorin
was older than Dis and have invented Frerin later. Thus no 'mistake' in the
first version of the genealogy. It looks like Frerin was written into the
Battle of Azanulbizar afterwards and then added to the genealogy.
Post by No Spam
In fact, this all came about AFTER Allen & Unwin had REJECTED
THE LORD OF THE RINGS (see preamble to Letter 128), so he
had no publisher for the sequel at the time anyway.
Yes. A&U had rejected LotR at the time of letter #130. That is irrelevant
to the fact that Tolkien was still trying to get it published... as
witnessed in letter #131.
No Spam
2004-07-09 22:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by No Spam
Younger than her elder brother. Ho, hum.
Ok, I found some time to look it up. Thorin's younger brother Frerin
appears in the genealogy in the appendix. I had forgotten that.
That helps your contention that Tolkien was describing Thorin as the elder
of Dis's brothers, but he could still have been saying simply that Thorin
was older than Dis and have invented Frerin later. Thus no 'mistake' in the
first version of the genealogy. It looks like Frerin was written into the
Battle of Azanulbizar afterwards and then added to the genealogy.
The genealogical table published on page 277 of THE PEOPLES OF
MIDDLE-EARTH probably didn't exist when JRRT wrote the entry for 2590
in the T4 "Tale of Years". This first version of the genealogy takes
into account some of the characters from THE HOBBIT but doesn't
include all of them. Christopher notes in his commentary on the first
draft of "Durin's Folk" that:

This text was followed by a second version, a well-written and
scarcely corrected manuscript with the title OF DURIN'S RACE,
very similar in appearance to text III of THE HOUSE OF EORL
(p. 272) and probably contemporary with it. So closely did
my father preserve the original text (as emended and expanded)
that I think it must have follwoed at once, or at any rate
after no long interval.

Further on he mentions the two copies of the genealogical table that
accompany the second version of the text, and they do not include
Frerin, either.

Regarding "The House of Eorl", Christopher puts the composition of
texts I, II, and III at about the same time and concludes they were
contemporary with T3 and T4 of "Tale of Years".

Where this breaks down for both me and you and is when, exactly, JRRT
wrote the account of the battle of Azanulbizar and the final
genealogy, which put all the names into their proper places (the
intermediate genealogies had some differences from the final one,
mostly indicating some people went to Moria who didn't in the
published text).
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Post by No Spam
In fact, this all came about AFTER Allen & Unwin had REJECTED
THE LORD OF THE RINGS (see preamble to Letter 128), so he
had no publisher for the sequel at the time anyway.
Yes. A&U had rejected LotR at the time of letter #130. That is irrelevant
to the fact that Tolkien was still trying to get it published... as
witnessed in letter #131.
Just refuting your nonsense about Tolkien not having time to work on
THE HOBBIT. As usual, you've screwed up the chronology of the events
and don't know what you're talking about.
McREsq
2004-07-15 14:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Not the two Thrain's debate!

Russ
Steuard Jensen
2004-07-16 19:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by McREsq
Not the two Thrain's debate!
Hey, Russ! Long time no see!

(Did you see my followup essay-thingy, "A History of Thrain(s) in The
Hobbit"? I actually convinced Michael that one argument for "two
Thrains" was erroneous, it seems, and it looks like he's largely
dropped the issue after some conversations with Douglas Anderson.)

Steuard Jensen

Michael Martinez
2004-06-27 22:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Odysseus
[snip]
[...] it must also be noted that both were drawn during the time
that the names of 'Thror' and 'Thrain' were reversed. As established above,
#85 was submitted with the manuscript and #86 before Tolkien received the
proofs from A&U. That is, at the time Tolkien drew BOTH versions (#85 &
#86) 'Thrain' was the name of Thorin's GRANDFATHER. Thorin's grandfather
WAS King Under the Mountain. The maps were thus correct when drawn, but
became incorrect when the names were reversed back.
If so, the phrase "of old" would seem a curious expression for
describing a reign at most a single generation prior to the making of
the map. Judging from the chronology in Appendix B to LotR the map
cannot have been drawn more than 75 years after the Kingdom under the
Mountain was destroyed. (Thráin -- i.e. Thorin's father, by whatever
name --lived five years more than this, but I very much doubt he was
accorded the opportunity to draw a map including moon-runes while
Sauron's prisoner in Dol Guldur.)
Neither Thror nor Thrain would have had any reason to write "of old"
in referring to his father as the King under the Mountain while his
father was still alive.

We know, based on currently available analysis of the texts (that is,
Douglas Anderson's work and the work of Hammond and Scull) that the
first map submitted to Allen & Unwin was drawn around the time the
mauscript was being prepared and that it included the words "Here of
old was the land of Thrain King under the Mountain". Even if it WAS
drawn while the names were reversed, we know that the name mixup was
applied consistently through the texts with one exception: the
expression "Arkenstone of Thrain" always remained "Arkenstone of
Thrain". It was never altered to "Arkenstone of Thror".

Hence, there is a deliberate distinction in the text between the name
of the Arkenstone's namesake and the names of Thorin's father and
grandfather.

Furthermore, we know there was a second map which Tolkien submitted to
Allen & Unwin which included the words "Here of old was Thrain King
under the Mountain". Tolkien COULD have labelled the second map
"Thrain's Map" and written "Here of old was Thror King under the
Mountain", but he did not do so.

That he always referred to the map as "Thror's Map" indicates that it
was Thror who made the map, not Thrain.

And since Tolkien deliberately restored Thror to the position of
grandfather before THE HOBBIT was published, it remains clear that
Tolkien intended the Thrain on the map to refer to an EARLIER king.

We also know that
Post by Odysseus
Now Tolkien's _Hobbit_-era idea of Dwarvish lifespans might
conceivably have been that they were very much longer than they later
became, allowing that one-generation interval to have begun in the
distant past as implied by "of old", but FWIW (I haven't read the
_Annotated Hobbit_) I'm not aware of any such indications in his
early writings.
That is not a necessary extrapolation. When Tolkien wrote the new
chapters for THE HOBBIT (Chapter Thirteen, "Not At Home", and Chapters
Fifteen through Nineteen), he expanded Thorin's family.

Thorin's cousin Dain entered the story for the first time in the
submitted manuscript in Chapter Fifteen ("The Gathering of the
Clouds") and was only mentioned a few times more later chapters. He
is first called "Dain son of Nain" in "The Clouds Burst", so Nain's
entry into the family also occurred in THE HOBBIT.

Balin's father Fundin was also named in the new material. Fili and
Kili are stated to be Thorin's nephews in "The Return Journey" as
well, and that marks the appearance of (the then as-yet unnamed) Dis
in the family tree. The passage also implies that Dis had a younger
brother (who was named in "Durin's Folk").

The Iron Hills, mentioned on the second and third versions of Thror's
Map (but not on the original version, which was NOT submitted to Allen
& Unwin), also appear in the narrative for the first time in "The
Gathering of the Clouds"). Thorin speaks of unnamed relatives in the
north as well, but they never appear in the LoTR genealogy.

Nothing is said of the history of the Iron Hills, but after Thorin's
death, "The Return Journey" says:

Upon his tomb the Elvenking laid Orcrist, the elvish sword
that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in
songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached,
and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by
surprise. There now Dain son of Nain took up his abode,
and he became King under the Mountain, and in time many
other dwarves gathered to his throne in the ancient halls....

Now, why would Tolkien call them "ancient halls" if there had only
been one previous king (Thror)?

That makes no sense, either.

Clearly, Tolkien envisioned a much more ancient lineage when he
submitted THE HOBBIT for publication than he had included in the
original story. And it was this ancient lineage, which he had
forgotten, that forced him to write "Durin's Folk", change "The Tale
of Years", and work up a genealogical table when he received the
proofs for the second edition of THE HOBBIT in 1950.
Michael Martinez
2004-06-24 16:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
...On page 287 of THE HOBBIT, the Arkenstone is referred
to as "the Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of
Thrain." Here, Thorin speaks of "the Arkenstone of my
father," and on page 334 Thorin says "that stone was
my father's." Surely in naming the stone "the Arkenstone
of Thrain," Tolkien would have meant the Thrain who
discovered it. Originally, the discoverer was Thorin's
father, but when Tolkien came to expand the Dwarvish
ancestry he seems to have missed the significance here
of Thorin describing the stone as being his father's.
By rights, at the time of the coming of the dragon,
the stone belonged not to Thrain but to Thror, Thrain's
father, then the King under the Mountain.
If, when he first published THE HOBBIT, Tolkien had intended the
Arkenstone to be named for Thorin's immediate father, he should have
(according to Christopher's anecdote regarding the name mixup) changed
"Arkenstone of Thrain" to "Arkenstone of Thror". Anderson does not
refer to the name mixup, much less indicate that it affected the
naming of the Arkenstone. I have sought clarification on the point
but have not yet received a reply.
According to Douglas Anderson, who tells he paid particular attention
to the name mixup when consulting the manuscripts for THE HOBBIT, he
does not recall seeing "the Arkenstone of Thror".
Horus Engels
2004-07-08 22:47:35 UTC
Permalink
***@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...

<snip>
Post by Michael Martinez
According to Douglas Anderson, who tells he paid particular attention
to the name mixup when consulting the manuscripts for THE HOBBIT, he
does not recall seeing "the Arkenstone of Thror".
Abues buse a Dang. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, you sexy little chipmunk!

Horus Engels
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-28 01:17:29 UTC
Permalink
A History of Thrain(s) in _The Hobbit_

by Steuard Jensen


Introduction

Much discussion has occurred (both recently and in the past) about the
textual history of the character "Thrain I", whom Tolkien eventually
established as the founder of the Dwarvish kingdom under Erebor. In
particular, the recent discussion has focused on when Tolkien first
invented that character: whether at the time that he first published
_The Hobbit_ he intended for there to have been only one Thrain or
two. I will denote and summarize the two positions as follows (but
note that these summaries have not been approved by all participants,
so the specific posts referenced later may be more authoritative):

<2T>: The essential point of the "Two Thrains" position is as follows:

At the time that _The Hobbit_ was first published, Tolkien had
knowingly decided that Thorin Oakenshield had two ancestors
named "Thrain": his father and a remote ancestor who founded the
realm of Erebor long before Thorin's grandfather Thror
re-established it.

<1T>: The essential point of the "One Thrain" position is as follows:

At the time that _The Hobbit_ was first published, Tolkien only
imagined one ancestor of Thorin Oakenshield named "Thrain": his
father. At that time, Tolkien imagined that Thorin's
grandfather Thror was the original founder of the realm of
Erebor. Tolkien did not knowingly introduce the earlier Thrain
until he was preparing the second edition (together with LotR).

Both sides apparently agree that in _The Hobbit_'s prepublication
state, there was indisputably only one Thrain. Both agree that when
it was published, Thorin's father was Thrain and his grandfather was
Thror. And both also agree that by the time that Tolkien wrote the
author's note for the second edition of _The Hobbit_, both Thrains had
been firmly established.


Over the years, <2T> has been advocated primarily by Michael Martinez.
His most recent and detailed statement of the position can be found in
a post of 23 June 2004 entitled "One Thrain or Two: A detailed textual
history", which can be found at Google Groups by its Message-ID:

http://google.com/groups?selm=3b26e128.0406231006.15e2419b%40posting.google.com

(This message appears to be a thorough rewrite of an earlier version,
based in part on detailed responses by myself and Conrad Dunkerson.
That earlier message was posted most recently on 20 June 2004:

http://google.com/groups?selm=3b26e128.0406200015.1a60046a%40posting.google.com

but it has clearly been superseded; this link is provided only for
reference in the <1T> section below.)

The position <1T> has been advocated by various people, generally in
response to assertions of <2T>. In the recent debate its primary
advocates have been myself and Conrad Dunkerson; for reference, see my
response to the earlier of Michael's posts above (the second link) and
Conrad's initial replies to both of them.


In what follows, I will refer to the following references:

[AH] _The Annotated Hobbit_, 2nd edition, by Douglas Anderson.
[A&I] _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator_, by Wayne Hammond and
Christina Scull.
[Bib] _J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive Bibliography_, by Wayne Hammond
and Douglas Anderson.
[Letters] _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, ed. Humphrey Carpenter.
[Treason] _The Treason of Isengard_, by Christopher Tolkien.
[Peoples] _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, by Christopher Tolkien.

These sources generally agree closely, reflecting the excellent
scholarship that went into all of them; I will note the few points
where they appear to disagree on relevant information. Not yet
available is a forthcoming book on the textual history of _The
Hobbit_, begun by the late Taum Santoski and under development by John
Rateliff. I expect that that book will set all these matters to rest
once it appears, but in the meantime we must proceed without it.
(Finally, "LotR" refers of course to _The Lord of the Rings_.)


I remain quite confident in the <1T> position, though not as certain
as I was before I embarked on the research for this essay. Thus,
while I will attempt to be fair in what follows, I make no secret of
my intent to defend <1T> here. My discussion will be broken into
three sections (plus this introduction and a conclusion):

1) Textual history of _The Hobbit_, its maps, and related writings.
2) The illustration "Conversation with Smaug".
3) Points related to the Arkenstone.

While much of this essay will be familiar from earlier discussions, I
am introducing at least two fundamentally new points. In section 1),
I will among other things correct a significant misunderstanding of
Christopher Tolkien's comments in [Treason] common to both sides of
the debate until this point. And in section 2), I will present the
most careful analysis of the inscription on the pot of gold in the
picture that I am aware of (certainly more detailed than in any
published text that I have seen). In any case, I believe that the
most significant parts of the argument is found in section 1); I argue
below that the evidence in sections 2) and 3) does not support <2T>
any more than it does <1T>.


1) Textual histoy of _The Hobbit_, its maps, and related writings

In what follows, I will give a detailed chronology of relevant points
in the history of _The Hobbit_'s writing, with dates flush left and
the main text indented six spaces. Commentary on how the various
points affect <1T> and <2T> will be indented three spaces.


Summer 1928/29/30: Tolkien writes the first sentence of _The Hobbit_.

1930: Tolkien writes "Stage A" of _The Hobbit_, as described in [AH].
This is basically only chapter 1, with many names changed. This
version includes the very first sketch of Thror's Map, as shown
on the page excerpt in [AH].

Eventually, he writes "Stage B", which includes chapters 1-12,
14, and an outline for the rest of the tale. Near the end of
this version, the head dwarf's name is changed to "Thorin" and
the wizard's to "Gandalf" [AH].

Given that Thorin's name was not established until this point,
this is the earliest possible point where Christopher Tolkien's
comment in [Treason] could apply: "There is no question that the
genealogy as first devised in _The Hobbit_ was Thorin
Oakenshield - Thrain - Thror".

By Jan 1933: Tolkien has finished "Stage C", which is a typed draft
that covers essentially the same material as Stage B.
Apparently, C.S. Lewis read the typescript at this point
(January). The Stage C text uses "Thorin" and "Gandalf"
throughout. [AH]

Summer 1936: Tolkien writes "Stage D" (the first version of chapters
13 and 15-19), "Stage E" (the first full typescript), and "Stage
F" (a second typescript that was apparently not used, due at
least in part to numerous typographical errors). [AH]

In [Treason], Christopher Tolkien says that "At one point,
however, Thror and Thrain were reversed in my father's
typescript, and this survived into the first proof." That
typescript was probably "Stage E", given that the error made it
into the proofs (and that "Stage F" wasn't used).

But note the wording here! The reversal of Thror and Thrain
occurred at ONE point in the typescript, and that ONE reversal
survived into the first proof (Christopher refers a bit later in
[Treason] to "that one error" in the proofs). This is contrary
to the arguments of both <1T> and <2T> in the past (including my
own contributions), which have both claimed that Tolkien's
extension of this reversal throughout the book occurred in the
final typescript and was _printed_ in the first proofs.

10 Aug 1936: Tolkien writes that "TH is now nearly finished". [Bib]

3 Oct 1936: Tolkien sends the finished typescript to Allen & Unwin,
who acknowledge its receipt on 5 Oct [Bib]. According to [AH],
this submission includes five maps for the book, including
"early versions of Thror's Map (probably a variant of _Artist_
#85...)" and the Wilderland Map. I have found no statement that
[A&I #85] was the precise copy submitted at this time, although
all seem to believe that it was very similar to the submitted
version.

This first submitted version of the chart is labeled "Thror's
Map" along with the note "Copied by B. Baggins", and includes
the phrase "Here of old was the land of Thrain King under the
Mountain". It is Tolkien's intent at this time that the map be
inserted in the text when it is first mentioned, and printed
with the moon-runes reversed on the back of the page so they
would only visible when the map is held up to a light.

[A&I] tells us that by the time he drew this version, Tolkien
"had already labored on it [Thror's Map] for years", which
certainly suggests that he produced a number of versions along
the way. [AH] does not comment directly on this point, but its
statement that the submitted map was "probably a variant" of
[A&I #85] certainly suggests that other intermediate versions
existed. We have no information on how many intermediate
versions there were or what text they contained.

<2T> naturally sees this as the first introduction of Thrain I, the
distant ancestor of Thror who first founded the realm of Erebor and
was King there. He has no detailed history as yet, but he has been
deliberately introduced into the story.

This is certainly the most natural conclusion to draw at this
point, but it leaves a fundamental question unanswered: what was
Tolkien's purpose in introducing Thrain I at this point? Usually
when Tolkien makes references to events and people from the distant
past he does so to create a sense of historical depth for the book.
This is beautifully illustrated by the many references to Gondolin
in _The Hobbit_, to choose one of many examples.

But this lone mention of a King Thrain is very different than those
other historical allusions, because a reader would have to go
through so many deductive steps to recognize it at all. First, she
would have to notice the distinction between King Thrain on the map
and King Thror/Prince Thrain in the text, and take it seriously.
Next, she would have to work out that this King Thrain must have
come before King Thror. After that, she'd have to puzzle out the
significance of the Dwarves who came to the Mountain in Thror's
time as they relate to all this, since they were apparently led by
King Thror: were they related to the earlier King Thrain? Did they
supplant him?

This sort of puzzling out is certainly possible (Tolkien seems to
have done something of the sort when he finally worked out the
detailed history of Thorin's ancestors for Appendix A of LotR), but
the point is that many or most readers (particularly children)
would probably have simply given up somewhere along the way and
concluded that the words on the map were simply mistaken (Tolkien's
words in his prefatory note to the second edition suggest that he
may have even received feedback from readers to that effect; see
the entry for 14 Sep 1950 below). If Tolkien meant for this King
Thrain to add to _The Hobbit_'s historical depth, he was in this
case uncharacteristically unsuccessful.

<1T> is unsatisfying at this point in a more straightforward way.
In the text at this time, Thorin's grandfather was Thror, and his
father Thrain had never been King. Thus, under the <1T> position,
a reference on the map to "Thrain King under the Mountain" is
inconsistent with the text and therefore an error on Tolkien's
part. Somehow, Tolkien failed to catch this error, despite his
careful attention to detail and great concern with Thror's Map.
Now, as mentioned under "Summer 1936" above, Tolkien did mistakenly
reverse Thror and Thrain once in the typescript of _The Hobbit_, so
he could have done the same here. But I will admit that the <1T>
position is looking a bit shaky at this point, even though it
avoids the question of the purpose of Thrain I in the story.

Given that uncertainty, this seems like a good place to first
mention the support given to the <1T> view by two noted Tolkien
scholars. In the first note to the chapter "A Thief in the Night"
in [AH], Douglas Anderson comments in part that

"In the first edition of _The Hobbit_, Thorin's father Thrain was
the only character of that name."

(The full context of this quote will be given in section 3 below,
in the discussion of the Arkenstone.) This is essentially a direct
statement of the <1T> position. And in [Treason], Christopher
Tolkien explains that:

"When _The Hobbit_ was first published it was Thrain son of Thror
- the only Thrain at that time conceived of - who discovered the
Arkenstone."

(This quote will also be put into its full context in section 3.)
At least when he wrote [Treason], then, Christopher Tolkien also
supported <1T>. The full context leading up to this quote centers
on a discussion of the Thror/Thrain reversal and discusses the
appearance of the name "Thrain" on Thror's Map specifically (that
part of the quote will be given in full when discussing Tolkien's
corrections to the proofs after 21 Feb 1937). Thus, in [Treason]
Christopher Tolkien believed in <1T> despite this apparent
conflict, and I will attempt to show why that is reasonable below.

For the record, [Treason] includes the disclaimer that

"the solution of this conundrum, if it can be found, belongs with
the textual history of _The Hobbit_, and I shall not pursue it
further."

So Christopher's statement here should not be taken as absolutely
authoritative: he does not know the solution, and has not fully
studied _The Hobbit_'s history. Still, even when writing [Treason]
he was more of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in
these debates (among other things, he was present and often
actively involved throughout the book's development), so his
opinion should carry some weight. As far as I know, he has never
corrected it or otherwise indicated that he has changed his view,
despite a clear opportunity to do so in [Peoples] if he had wished.

30 Oct 1936: The date-stamp on Rayner Unwin's report on _The Hobbit_,
which mentions the maps.

10 Dec 1936: Allen & Unwin tells Tolkien that they are having trouble
with the five maps: they have too many colors, and the chalk
shading is difficult to reproduce. They suggest that the
Wilderland map and Thror's Map be printed in two colors as
endpapers [Bib].

4 Jan 1937: [Bib] states that sometime before this date Tolkien had
redrawn both Thror's Map and the Wilderland map. Thror's map at
this stage reads in part "Here of old was Thrain King under the
Mountain". In Letter #9 of this date, he states his decision
that the other three maps were not necessary.

[Bib] seems to indicate that Tolkien submitted the final version
of Thror's map at this time, as described below. But [AH]
claims that he "would have to redraw Thror's Map yet again, in a
horizontal framework suitable for an endpaper". Meanwhile,
[A&I] makes reference to only one redrawing after [A&I #85]: the
final version of Thror's Map, [A&I #86], which is already in a
horizontal format. However, the language in [A&I] suggests that
this redrawing only happened after Tolkien had given up on
inserting the map in the text, which [Bib] dates to 5 Feb.

As I see it, the lengthy negotiations about details of Thror's
Map presented in [Bib] (and outlined below) suggest that Tolkien
did submit a revision that was supposed to be final on this date
(4 Jan). Because [A&I] make no mention of two "final" versions
in different formats (vertical and horizontal) despite its close
study of illustrations, I find it unlikely that an intermediate
"final" version was drawn, despite the comment to that effect in
the admittedly later [AH]. This is supported by the fact that
[Bib] also makes no mention of a later "final" version, despite
its very careful catalogue of correspondence on this topic. And
Tolkien's tone by the end of his arguments about Thror's Map
(see 5 Feb below) gives no hint of an intent to redraw it again,
but rather of simple resignation. Thus, I lean toward [Bib]'s
version of the map's history: the final version (in horizontal
format) was submitted on 4 Jan 1937. In the end, though, this
distinction is not a crucial one.

<2T> has no problems at this point: the final version of Thror's
Map continues the mention of a King Thrain, just like the previous
version. Whatever the reason was, it hasn't changed.

<1T> looks worse now: if the use of "Thrain" in [A&I #85] was
simply an error, then Tolkien failed to notice and fix that error
at this point despite the fact that he redrew the map from scratch
and even changed the phrasing of the sentence mentioning Thrain.
This is possible, particularly if Tolkien were focused on improving
the technical execution of the map and not thinking too hard about
its content, but it is admittedly unlikely.

An alternate possibility, which may or may not have merit, is that
Tolkien decided at this point to change the genealogy to be Thorin
- Thror - Thrain. As explained later (see 21 Feb), Tolkien did
temporarily introduce this change throughout the proofs. In that
case, the continued use of the name "Thror's Map" might just
reflect a shift to name the map after its last owner rather than
its first one (renaming the map could have confused the publisher,
for example). Nevertheless, based on the history so far this
explanation seems unlikely as well.

7 Jan 1937: Allen & Unwin once again suggests that the two maps be
printed as endpapers [Bib]. They also approve of the
illustrations, despite a few technical difficulties.

17 Jan 1937: Tolkien accepts the endpaper idea, at least for the
Wilderland map, but continues to push for Thror's map to be
inserted in the text to allow the see-through moon-letters
[Bib].

23 Jan 1937: Allen & Unwin asks Tolkien to send back Thror's Map,
because "the blockmaker had misunderstood his instructions and
left out the 'magic' of the runes" [Bib]. Throughout, they have
tried to assure Tolkien that they will still be able to capture
the runes' "magic" without the see-through trick (which would be
impossible on an endpaper).

[Note: it is this long discussion, and particularly the emphasis
on the difficulties that the production department was having in
actually implementing the map, that mostly convince me that
Tolkien did not submit yet another version after he gave up on a
see-through insert on 5 Feb.]

That same day, Tolkien sends back the map, but presses on in his
advocacy of the see-through effect rather than "putting the
magic runes on the face of the chart, which rather spoils it
(unless yr. reference to 'magic' refers to someting 'magical')".
He even goes so far as to send a sample along with the map: "I
have drawn a copy in reverse so that when printed they would
read right way round held up to the light." [Bib]

1 Feb 1937: Allen & Unwin insists that the runes will be on the front
of the map [Bib].

5 Feb 1937: Tolkien writes back, saying "Let the Production Dept. do
as it will with the chart [Thror's Map]." [Bib]

I call special attention to Tolkien's tone above, which has a
distinct air of "washing his hands of the whole affair". He is
done fighting for his vision of how the map should appear, at
least in the British edition.

20 Feb 1937: Tolkien receives the first set of proofs for the book,
and corrects them [Bib].

21 Feb 1937: Tolkien writes to Allen & Unwin that he will retain all
of the proofs until he has the complete set. He says that

"There are some minor discrepancies that come out in print and
make it desirable to have the whole story together before
passing for press. ...very few corrections would be necessary,
but for defects in the copy itself, and unfortunate
discrepancies in the text (and between the text and
illustrations)."

It seems that this must refer at least in part to the reversal
that Christopher Tolkien wrote about in [Treason]:

"Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occcurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror. It is
hard to believe that this extraordinary concern was unconnected
with the words on 'Thror's Map' in _The Hobbit_: 'Here of old
was _Thrain_ [CT's emphasis] King under the mountain'; but the
solution of this conundrum, if it can be found, belongs with
the textual history of _The Hobbit_, and I shall not pursue it
further."

Again, to clarify what this says as compared to what both sides
of this discussion have asserted in the past, the proofs had the
reversed genealogy in just one place. Tolkien went through them
from front to back and reversed it everywhere on the proofs, and
then went back through and restored the original (and final)
order.

<1T> finally begins to seem plausible here. At some point after
submitting the manuscript, a <1T> advocate would say, Tolkien
recognized that a discrepancy existed between the map and the text.
This may not have happened until he was actually reading the
proofs: note his comment that "some minor discrepancies... come out
in print", and further that some of those discrepancies were
"between the text and illustrations". Or it could have been while
he was redrawing Thror's Map, as suggested above (under 4 Jan).

In any case, the most natural <1T> position would be that Tolkien
recognized the error and decided to try to correct it. As noted
above, he seems to have already become discouraged in his attempts
to change the map (his earlier efforts were considerable, but
unsuccessful). Thus, he decided to change the text to agree with
the map (he did the same thing when writing LotR). Something along
these lines seems to be what Christopher Tolkien was suggesting in
the quote from [Treason] above.

It is not clear, though, why he then decided to change all the
names back and re-introduce the inconsistency in the text. Perhaps
he simply liked the sound of "Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror"
better. Perhaps he found (or feared) that the name changes
introduced further inconsistencies into the text that he didn't
want to track down (a possible example is mentioned in section 3).
Maybe he decided that he would try to change the map after all, but
eventually realized (or was told) that doing so was no longer
possible. In any case, the <1T> position on this point would seem
to be that Tolkien chose not to embark on any serious changes to
the story at this late stage, deciding that the error on the map
was not critical.

<2T> has a harder time here. If Tolkien had already consciously
decided that there would be an older "Thrain I" who founded Erebor,
what reason would he have for reversing the names at this point?
The best explanation that I can think of would be that Tolkien had
decided temporarily to remove that earlier Thrain from the history,
and then after more thought decided to put him back in. It still
isn't clear what purpose this older character serves in the
narrative, as his existence must still be indirectly deduced.

Moreover, if the temporary decision to remove him was a response to
that concern, why wouldn't Tolkien have made some change to the
final text to explain the map after he decided to keep the
character? (That is, why didn't he do something along the lines of
the changes finally included in the third edition? As described
below under 23 Mar, Tolkien's corrections to the proofs turned out
to be "pretty heavy" anyway; it seems that a few more minor changes
would not have made things much worse.)

24 Feb 1937: Tolkien receives the remaining proofs of the book, along
with the advice (perhaps prompted by his comments on defects to
be fixed) that he should keep changes to a minimum and avoid
changing the lengths of lines as much as possible [Bib].

~10 Mar 1937: Tolkien returns all of the corrected proofs [Bib].

23 Mar 1937: Allen & Unwin tells Tolkien that the endpapers (the maps)
would be best presented in black and red. They also note that
Tolkien's corrections to the proofs were "pretty heavy"; in the
end, the book had to be reset despite Tolkien's attempts to
match the size of the original [Bib].

Early Apr 1937: Tolkien receives the revised proofs [Bib].

13 Apr 1937: Tolkien returns the revised proofs with few corrections.
He also submits redrawn runes for Thror's Map (he felt the
existing ones were "ill-done (and not quite upright)"), but "it
was not possible to substitute them for the earlier version"
[Bib].

11 May 1937: Allen & Unwin tells Tolkien that an American firm is
interested in publishing _The Hobbit_, and that they would like
to include color illustrations. A&U suggests that Tolkien
should draw them himself [Bib].

13 May 1937: Tolkien agrees to attempt the color illustrations.
[Bib], also Letter #13.

28 May 1937: Tolkien asks if the American edition might put Thror's
Map in the text, as he had desired (they don't) [Bib]. This
also includes the content of Letter #14, including his final
agreement to make color illustrations when he has the time.

June 1937: _The Hobbit_ is printed, but release is delayed.

Mid-July 1937: Tolkien draws four color illustrations, including
"Conversation with Smaug" [Bib].

The (non-)impact of this drawing on the <1T>/<2T> argument is
discussed at length in its own section below.

21 Sep 1937: _The Hobbit_ is published in England.

[much unrelated activity, including many batches of corrections]

21 Sep 1947: Tolkien submits more corrections, as well as his full
re-write of chapter 5 (meant only as a sample for comment)
[Bib].

1949-50: Tolkien writes draft T 4 of the "Tale of Years" for _The Lord
of the Rings_. This includes the entry:

"2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm of
Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and becomes 'King under the
Mountain'.[33]"

Christopher Tolkien's endnote [33] reads exactly as follows:

"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged."

(All this comes from [Peoples].)

<2T> is now faced with a serious difficulty: why did Tolkien write
that Thror founded Erebor if he had deliberately introduced the
earlier King Thrain I? The best answer that I have seen or thought
of is that he simply forgot about the first Thrain. But that is
surprising, considering the lengths to which he went adjusting the
genealogy on the proofs (which, under the <2T> view, may well have
involved the decision to remove him and then put him back in).

The <2T> position reads Christopher Tolkien's comment that "the
history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged" as a reference to
the detailed genealogy and family tree all the way from Moria to
Thorin's generation in "Durin's Folk". In particular, this
position does not believe that Christopher's comment here precludes
a prior emergence of the part of that history involving Thrain I.

<1T> is perfectly content with this Tale of Years entry, and does
not consider it to be a mistake of any sort. According to this
position, Tolkien had not yet invented any ancestors of Thorin
between Durin and Thror, nor any of their history. And Tolkien had
always intended for Thror to be the founder of Erebor. He had not
yet devoted any thought to "fixing" the mistake on the map.

Furthermore, <1T> reads Christopher's endnote as a statement about
Thror "founding" the realm of Erebor in particular (the endnote
quotes that specific statement for context). Thus, <1T> sees this
as further explicit support of the <1T> position by Christopher
Tolkien at the time that he wrote [Peoples].

26 Jul 1950: Allen & Unwin sends Tolkien rough proofs of the second
edition, incorporating his major changes to chapter 5 [Bib].

1 Aug 1950: Tolkien responds with his surprise about the incorporation
of his changes to chapter 5, and complains that if he had had
warning he could have "shortened and tightened the revision",
but accepts the change. [Bib], also Letter #128.

14 Sep 1950: Tolkien sends "the briefest form of the prefatory note"
for the new edition, explaining the two versions and presumably
also explaining "Thrain" on the map. [Letter #130] The relevant
part of the note reads:

"A final note may be added, on a point raised by several
students of the lore of the period. On Thror's Map is written
_Here of old was Thrain King under the Mountain_; yet Thrain
was the son of Thror, the last King under the Mountain before
the coming of the dragon. The Map, however, is not in error.
Names are often repeated in dynasties, and the genealogies show
that a distant ancestor of Thror was referred to, Thrain I, a
fugitive from Moria, who first discovered the Lonely Mountain,
Erebor, and ruled there for a while, before his people moved on
to the remoter mountains of the North."

Interestingly, the endnote to L#130 giving the text of the
prefatory note omits the pragraph about the map, but as no other
record of its submission seems to exist I assume it was included
with the rest.


Somewhere around this time (certainly between the earlier Tale
of Years version T 4 and the next one T 5, written sometime
before 22 Oct 1954), Tolkien writes the first draft of "Durin's
Folk" for Appendix A of LotR (this draft is entitled "Of Durin's
Line"). This text, published in [Peoples], contains the first
known full discussion of Thrain I's history, including the first
extended genealogical table (to which the note above may refer).
Christopher comments on it as follows:

"In this text and its accompanying genealogical table... it is
seen that an important advance had been made from the text T 4
of the Tale of Years, where it was told under the year 2590
that Thror 'founded the realm of Erebor' (p. 236): as I said in
a note on that entry, 'the history of Thror's ancestors had not
yet emerged'.[5] Here that history is present..."

Endnote [5] reads:

"The extension of the line beyond Thror appears to have had its
starting-point in my father's explanation of the words on
Thror's Map in _The Hobbit_ ('Here of old was Thrain King under
the Mountain') as referring not to Thrain son of Thror but to a
remote ancestor also named Thrain: see VII.160."

(The reference is to passage in [Treason] cited earlier.)

<2T>'s understanding of all this is that Tolkien has finally made
the history of Thrain I explicit rather than implicit, and fleshed
it out in detail for the first time in "Of Durin's Line". No
further changes to the text of _The Hobbit_ were made, because
Tolkien viewed it as being consistent with the earlier Thrain from
the start, but the prefatory note was added for the benefit of
readers who had not thought through the map's implications. And
Christopher Tolkien's comment about "Thrain" on Thror's Map being
the "starting-point" simply means that the map was the first
introduction of the character.

<1T>, on the other hand, sees this as the first emergence of the
original Thrain in Tolkien's mind. Whenever it may have been that
he first recognized the error on the map, he has finally taken the
time to construct an explanation for it. However, as his focus at
this time was primarily on the development of LotR, he does not
take the time to rewrite the text of the book to give this new
explanation but simply adds it as part of the prefatory note. (The
lack of updates to the text itself may also have been due to his
knowledge that the book was being only partially re-set, as
reported in [Bib]. Large changes requiring re-setting of the early
chapters could easily introduce many new textual errors, while
Tolkien had spent years trying to eliminate the existing ones.)

As for Christopher Tolkien's comment in note [5] cited above, the
<1T> position would emphasize that Christopher says not that the
_words_ on Thror's Map were the starting-point of the extension of
Thorin's ancestry, but that his father's _explanation_ of those
words was the starting-point. Again, here in [Peoples] it does not
sound like Christopher Tolkien sees the map as having intentionally
introduced the earlier Thrain: he still seems to agree with <1T>.


19 Jul 1951: The second edition of _The Hobbit_ is published [Bib].

22 Oct 1954: Allen & Unwin says that the Tale of Years is "probably
too long for the appendices as it stands" [Peoples].

The version to which this refers is the typescript T 5, composed
at some point well after T 4 (mentioned earlier under 1949-50)
and incorporating various changes to it. One of those changes
was to the 2590 entry, which now says that "Thror... comes south
and re-establishes the realm of Erebor" instead of its former
reading. In his discussion of "Of Durin's Line", Christopher
Tolkien says that "While the history was at this stage the
corrections and additions were made to T 4" [Peoples].

[again, much unrelated activity]

30 Nov 1964: Allen & Unwin indicates that another firm was interested
in publishing _The Hobbit_ for schools; from the same printing,
Allen & Unwin could then produce "a large number of copies for
publication in Allen & Unwin's own paperback 'U Books' series."
[Bib]

14 Jun 1965: A deal for this paperback release has established by this
point [Bib].

23 Jun 1965: Tolkien accepts the idea of a paperback edition, but is
concerned about the quailty of the text (due to an earlier
paperback fiasco). As a result, he says that "I hope that I may
be allowed some control over what is done." He goes on to
explain that he has recently re-read _The Hobbit_ and has
planned some changes:

"since in effect a new edn. (for U. Books) is being re-set, I
think the time has come to make a few alterations (in 6 places)
which I have prepared: their object is to correct a small
discrepancy; to make the note on _Thrain_, which was still
necessary in the Puffin version, unnecessary; and to bring _The
Hobbit_ in line with _The Lord of the Rings_ where needed."

(All this from [Bib].)

A potentially significant point for <1T> is Tolkien's comment that
the note on Thrain was "necessary" in earlier versions of the
book: it sounds like he did not think the text alone without the
note was consistent. However, as <2T> supporters would be quick to
point out, this may be a stronger reading of "necessary" than
Tolkien intended.

24 Aug 1965: Tolkien submits his changes for the third edition of _The
Hobbit_ [Bib]. Most of the relevant changes relate to the
history of Erebor in Thror's time as related in chapter 1, and
read as follows:

"and came with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
[became]
"and came back with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"

"It had been discovered by my far ancestor, Thrain the Old"
[was added.]

"they made huge halls and great workshops"
[became]
"they made huger halls and greater workshops"

"King under the Mountain"
[became]
"King under the Mountain again"

There were also a number of points where the actual names of
Thorin's father and grandfather were added in this section.
(These changes were reported in [AH].)

<1T> sees these changes as changing the text from a description of
the original settlement of Erebor to a description of its
re-settlement. As compared to their revised counterparts, the
original versions certainly seem to describe a "founding" rather
than a "re-establishment". <1T> takes this as evidence that
Tolkien did not see the original language as being consistent with
the history of Thrain I (at least not in any natural way). As
described earlier, the <1T> position is that Tolkien only failed to
make changes like these to the earlier edition due to a lack of
time to spend on _The Hobbit_ when it appeared. As can be seen from
his comments under 23 Jun above, Tolkien certainly seemed to think
that having the Thrain explanation in a prefatory note was an
undesirable state of affairs, but he was hesitant to make
substantial changes to the text unless the full text was being
re-set anyway.

<2T> on the other hand would probably describe these changes as
simply making the original intent of the author more obvious in the
text, so that more readers could figure out the reason for
"Thrain"'s appearance on the map without the need for a note to
explain it to them. In particular, <2T> points out that the
original text is not technically inconsistent with the final story
published in "Durin's Folk" in LotR.

11 Nov 1965: Allen & Unwin sends Tolkien proofs of the third edition
[Bib].

10 Dec 1965: Tolkien returns the corrected proofs after one more
careful revision, along with the final version of the author's
note at the beginning [Bib].

February 1966: The third edition of _The Hobbit_ is published in the
UK (in paperback) [Bib].


That is pretty much the whole history of _The Hobbit_'s publication
that is relevant to this discussion, as gleaned from the multiple
sources cited. I would summarize the pros and cons of the <1T> and
<2T> positions as follows:

<1T> starts out at a disadvantage: it requires us to believe that
Tolkien made a significant error by using the name Thrain on the
map, and furthermore that after he became aware of that error, he
eventually gave up on fixing it and let it remain unexplained until
the note introduced for the second edition. But that is its only
difficulty, at least based on the aspects of textual history
discussed above. <1T> is in direct agreement with all of
Christopher Tolkien's comments on this history in "The History of
Middle-earth", and fits naturally with the history of LotR's
development as presented there. It is also the position taken by
Douglas Anderson in [AH].

<2T> does not require us to assume that Tolkien made a serious
error on the map, but it does require us to believe that he
invented the character of Thrain I for no apparent purpose in the
original story: a subtle and indirect historical reference like
this would probably be overlooked by most of the book's readers
(particularly young children). Despite the concern that Tolkien
showed about the genealogy in his revisions of the proofs, <2T>
requires us to believe that Tolkien had completely forgotten that
Dwarves had inhabited Erebor before Thror when he came to write the
Tale of Years for LotR. It claims that Christopher Tolkien's
comments on the matter in [Treason] were simply wrong, and requires
a very strained reading of Christopher's comments in [Peoples] (or
if those are read naturally, disagreeing with them as well).

In my opinion, <1T> is the most natural solution to this puzzle. I
will address some other arguments that have been brought up below.


2) The illustration "Conversation with Smaug"

As mentioned above, Tolkien created this illustration as one of the
color pictures promised for the first American edition of _The Hobbit_
(which Tolkien agreed to produce in Letter #14 on 28 May 1937). [Bib]
indicates that the drawing was probably made in mid-July of 1937, so
its details presumably illustrate Tolkien's view of the story at the
time _The Hobbit_ was published (he had long since signed off on the
final proofs). He apparently submitted the illustration before the
end of August (his final color illustration was submitted on 31 Aug).

The picture has many interesting features, but the only one which
might be relevant to this discussion is the inscription on a large pot
of treasure at the bottom left. The inscription is written primarily
in Tengwar, and [AH] translates it as follows: "gold th[portion
obscured by ladder] Thrain / accursed be the thief". Not translated
in [AH] are the two TH runes below the Tengwar inscription.

I will argue below that this picture contains no information
whatsoever of relevance to the two Thrains debate. This is contrary
to the arguments of Michael Martinez that the inscription supports the
<2T> position. In particular, Michael asks "why should items in the
hoard be named for Thrain and not for Thror?" He says that this
evidence indicates that "Tolkien intended a reference to another King
under the Mountain in both the map [Thror's Map] and the illustration
[Conversation with Smaug]." [My notes.]


My counterargument has two parts. First, we know that the treasure in
the hoard was not merely the treasure of Thror but the collected
treasure of all Erebor. As Thorin says in Chapter 1, after killing
all the Dwarves in the Mountain, Smaug

"took all their wealth for himself. Probably, for that is the
dragons' way, he has piled it all up in a great heap far inside,
and sleeps on it for a bed."

The illustration is in perfect agreement with this. Thus, if Thorin's
father Thrain had any of his own gold stored in Erebor, it would have
ended up in the main hoard and could easily appear in Tolkien's
drawing. And I can see no reason that Thrain should not label his
treasure as his own or curse those who might steal it.

Michael has said that "it is a HUGE unsupportable leap to suggest that
everyone would have been cursing gold cups in their own names." I do
not see this as a leap at all. I know that I have written my name on
many of my books, even before I was elected Prom King. Even if one
were to claim that the average Dwarf could not or would not lay curses
(which I think is already unsupported), Thrain was a prince and an
heir of Durin. So already, it doesn't seem that Thrain's name on the
pot of gold in the picture implies anything about his royal position.


But I claim further that this entire argument is beside the point,
because the pot of gold bears the names and initials of _both_ Thror
and Thrain. The initials are clear: the pot bears the same "TH TH"
runes that Thror and Thrain used to sign Thror's Map. (In the final
version of _The Hobbit_'s prefatory note, Tolkien explains that the
paired "TH TH" runes "are the initials of Thror and Thrain.") But I
claim that the Tengwar inscription includes Thror's name as well.

My own literal transcription of the inscription is given below, in
slightly "coded" form. Letters printed without other markings have
meanings that everyone seems to agree upon. ('th' is of course
represented by a single Tengwa.) A letter followed by '?' (e.g. "o?")
is my reconstruction of a partially obscured Tengwa. A set of letters
in braces (e.g. "{r|n}") lists all likely reconstructions of a single
Tengwa in such a case. An underscore '_' denotes a totally obscured
region which I believe must contain a Tengwa.

My transcription of the Tengwar is:

gold th_o?{r|n} thrain
akerst {d|b}e {d|dh|the} thef

Word by word:

"gold": Only the 'o' is unfamiliar: the character here looks like a
lowercase 'o' with a '>' on top. I accept Anderson's translation.

"th_o?{r|n}": Going letter by letter:
The 'th' is clear.
The vertical post of the ladder obstructs considerable space, but
as a lone 'th' has no meaning I assume there must be a character
there. I believe that this hidden Tengwa must be fairly narrow.
The next character is partially obscured by the rungs of the
ladder, but the bottom clearly looks like a lowercase 'o' and the
top could be either an "acute accent" or the lower half of the '>'
decoration mentioned above. The character is completely consistent
with the 'o' Tengwa in "gold", and looks very different than all
other known Tengwar.
The top of the final character is blocked by a rung, and the
right side is cut off by the right post of the ladder. But we can
see that the Tengwa has a short stem (not extended up or down) and
that it is open on the bottom. The end curl of its first (or only)
"bow" is also visible right next to the ladder's post. Looking at
the Tengwar chart, that means that it can be only 'r' or 'n'.

"thrain": Everyone seems to agree here. The 'ai' character looks like
the 'a' from 'akerst' plus an "umlaut"; that umlaut is precisely
the way that Tolkien distinguished 'a' and 'ai' in the Mode of
Beleriand (according to Dan Smith's excellent Tengwar information
pages).

"akerst": Everyone seems to agree, this means "accursed". The 'a'
Tengwa is unfamiliar to me (at least as a vowel), but this reading
makes perfect sense and is used consistently in "thrain".

"{d|b}e": The first letter is partially obscured by the pole of the
ladder, but we can clearly see its down-extended stem and the very
beginning of a first bow. To the right of the pole, what looks
like the edge of a second bow is visible, though that is less
clear. I actually do not see any evidence that this Tengwa is
closed at the bottom, which would seem to rule out 'b'; I list it
here out of deference to Anderson's translation and because the
letter really is quite obscured. (If what I have described as part
of a second bow were really part of a second letter, that would
change this discussion considerably; the first letter would then
seem to be 't' or possibly 'p'.)
The 'e' seems very likely (an "acute accent" Tetha over a short
stem), but even there I'm a little uncertain. This symbol could
easily match the 'e' in the final word "thef", although the spacing
is a little odd.
I am fairly certain that there is an inter-word space at this
point.

"{d|dh|the}": This character clearly has a double bow open down, but
its stem is obscured by the post, so it could be either 'd', 'dh',
or Tolkien's shorthand for 'the' (with a double-extended stem, up
and down). Since it seems to be on its own without vowels, "the"
seems to be the most likely reading.

"thef": Everyone seems to agree, this means "thief".

So putting this all together, my best guess at the full Tengwar
inscription is:

gold Thror Thrain
accursed be the thief

I can see no other reasonable candidate reading of the second word
given the constraints above. (In particular, it could not be "the"
followed by something else, because the first letter is clearly 'th',
not 'dh' or the 'the' shorthand.) And putting "Thror" there along
with "Thrain" fits perfectly with the "TH TH" runes below the Tengwar
(a pair we only see used as their initials), as it really only makes
sense for both names to be present in both places. (The word "be" in
the second line seems reasonable except for the fact that its first
letter looks more like a 'd' to me; I could imagine a case being made
for "die" instead, with the 'i' somehow obscured by the ladder).

Thus, I claim that this picture tells us absolutely nothing about the
two Thrains debate. It simply illustrates a fact that everyone agrees
upon: that when _The Hobbit_ was published, Tolkien believed that
Thror and Thrain together were very wealthy before Smaug drove them
out of Erebor.


3) Points related to the Arkenstone

A final point that has been raised in the debate over the number of
Thrains originally intended in _The Hobbit_ centers on the name "the
Arkenstone of Thrain". That name was associated with the stone
without alteration from the first edition of the book to the last (and
apparently throughout the final typescript and the proofs: Michael
Martinez informs us that Douglas Anderson never saw the name
"Arkenstone of Thror" at any stage of revision, even during the
Thrain/Thror reversal). It first appears in the chapter "Inside
Information", where the dwarves discuss the treasure waiting below:

"But fairest of all was the great white gem, which the dwarves had
found beneath the roots of the Mountain, the Heart of the Mountain,
the Arkenstone of Thrain."

So what is the significance of this name? It seems most likely that
the Arkenstone is called "the Arkenstone of Thrain" because it was
discovered by someone named Thrain. (It could also potentially have
been given the name of a particularly early or notable owner, I
suppose, or of the person who "cut and fashioned" it). And indeed,
Appendix A of LotR says of Thrain I that "In Erebor he found the great
jewel, the Arkenstone". So far, so good, at least as far as the
revised editions of the book are concerned.

At this point, <2T> is very happy: from that perspective, the
Arkenstone always bore the name of Thrain I, its original discoverer
(as made explicit in Appendix A). The name "the Arkenstone of Thrain"
would obviously not depend on the names of Thorin's father and
grandfather, so it is no surprise at all that it was not changed when
Tolkien reversed their names on the proofs.

On the other hand, <1T> is not particularly bothered by this
observation either (not yet, anyway). Tolkien could easily have
simply liked the name "the Arkenstone of Thrain", and not been overly
concerned about whether it had been found by Thorin's father or by his
grandfather.


But that is not the whole story. Thorin also says more than once that
the Arkenstone belonged to "his father" specifically. In "The Clouds
Burst", we read:

"'That stone was my father's, and is mine,' he [Thorin] said. 'Why
should I purchase my own?' But wonder overcame him and he added:
'But how came you by the heirloom of my house [...]?'

And earlier, at the beginning of "A Thief in the Night", we read that

"Thorin spoke of the Arkenstone of Thrain, and bade them eagerly to
look for it in every corner.

"'For the Arkenstone of my father,'[1] he said, 'is worth more than
a river of gold in itself, and to me it is beyond price. That
stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged
on anyone who finds it and withholds it.'"

The parallel structure of the two references to the Arkenstone here
certainly indicates that "my father" refers to "Thrain". Note [1] in
[AH] refers to Douglas Anderson's commentary on this passage:

"[1] A slight confusion remains evident in the text here. In the
first edition of _The Hobbit_, Thorin's father Thrain was the only
character of that name. However, on Thror's Map it states 'Here of
old was Thrain King under the Mountain.' Thorin's father Thrain
was not the King under the Mountain when the dragon came; Thrain's
father, Thror, was then the King under the Mountain. In the 1951
second edition of _The Hobbit_, Tolkien added an introductory note
including the statement [...] that 'the Map, however, is not in
error. [...]" This part of the introductory note was made
unnecessary in 1966 by some revisions to the text, including the
introduction of Thorin's far ancestor Thrain the Old on page 54.

"In section III ('Durin's Folk') of Appendix A of _The Lord of the
Rings_, Tolkien wrote of Thrain the Old (Thrain I): 'In Erebor he
found the great jewel, the Arkenstone, Heart of the Mountain.' On
page 287 of _The Hobbit_, the Arkenstone is referred to as 'the
Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain.' Here, Thorin
speaks of 'the Arkenstone of Thrain' and 'the Arkenstone of my
father,' and on page 334 Thorin says 'that stone was my father's.'
Surely in naming the stone 'the Arkenstone of Thrain,' Tolkien
would have meant the Thrain who discovered it. Originally, the
discoverer was Thorin's father, but when Tolkien came to expand the
Dwarvish ancestry he seems to have missed the significance here of
Thorin describing the stone as being his father's. By rights, at
the time of the coming of the dragon, the stone belonged not th
Thrain but to Thror, Thrain's father, then King under the
Mountain."

Anderson's second sentence here seems to take <1T> as a foregone
conclusion (he certainly doesn't spend any time defending or
explaining his statement of that position), and the "slight confusion"
here does not seem to have shaken his belief. Christopher Tolkien's
discussion of this issue in [Treason] is very similar:

"The history of Thrain the First, fugitive from Moria, first King
under the Mountain, and discoverer of the Arkenstone, was given in
_The Lord of the Rings_, Appendix A (III), _Durin's Folk_; and
doubtless the prefatory note in the 1951 edition and the passage in
Appendix A were closely related. But this was the product of
development in the history of the Dwarves that came in with _The
Lord of the Rings_ (and indeed the need to explain the words on the
map 'Here of old was thrain King under the Mountain' evidently
played a part in that development). When _The Hobbit_ was first
published it was Thrain son of Thror - the only Thrain at that time
conceived of - who discovered the Arkenstone."

This closely parallels Anderson's comments above, and like Anderson,
Christopher Tolkien unquestionably takes the <1T> perspective. But
the difficulty that Anderson has pointed out certainly affects the
<1T>/<2T> debate.


So what should we make of these statements that the Arkenstone
belonged to Thorin's father? The <1T> position has been more or less
summarized above: when he first wrote the story, Tolkien meant for
Thorin's father Thrain to have found the Arkenstone, and he probably
just "missed the significance" of Thorin's use of "my father" in this
context when he invented the earlier Thrain for the second edition.
(A reader particularly determined to interpret the texts in a
consistent way might suggest that Thror had already passed down the
Arkenstone to his son Thrain before the dragon came, but such
speculations are not particularly important for this debate.)

From this point of view, the fact that Tolkien didn't alter the name
here to "the Arkenstone of Thror" (or, alternately, replace "my
father" with "my grandfather", assuming he didn't do so) during the
Thrain/Thror reversal could be seen as a sign that at least he was
consistent: at _no_ point in his revisions over the years did he
notice that the Arkenstone references were relevant to that question.
(Alternately, it is even possible that recognizing this difficulty was
a factor in convincing him to change the genealogy back to the
original Thorin - Thrain - Thror order: Tolkien may have concluded
that cleaning up every subtle connection like this would make the
reversal a greater challenge than he'd thought.) Once again, the <1T>
position is forced to claim that Tolkien repeatedly overlooked a
mistake, but at least in this case it's a relatively subtle one.


As for the <2T> position, it is also faced with a challenge here: for
<2T>, the difficulty that Anderson outlines is present from the very
first published version of the text (as opposed to the <1T> case,
where this conflict was only introduced when Appendix A to LotR was
written).

The explanation, according to <2T>, lies in the sense in which Thorin
meant the word "father". In the passage from "The Clouds Burst"
quoted above, Thorin calls the Arkenstone "the heirloom of my house",
and <2T> asserts that this would be an odd term to use of an artifact
found by one's father: "heirloom" most implies something passed down
through the generations. Thus, <2T> explains, "father" must have a
more general meaning: a remote ancestor. (For the record, <1T> could
counter that a gem as unique and remarkable as the Arkenstone could
easily have been recognized as the greatest artifact possessed
Thrain's house as soon as it was found; the use of "heirloom" in such
a case would be a bit unusual but not out of the question.)

Is this an accepted meaning for "father"? Yes, it is. The Oxford
English Dictionary lists the following as definition 2. of "father":

"A male ancestor more remote than a parent, esp. the founder of a
race or family, a forefather, progenitor. In pl. ancestors,
forefathers."

So far, the suggestion of <2T> is supported. In particular, the
plural form "fathers" does refer to ancestors or forefathers in
general. But <1T> is quick to note the clarification here of exactly
what sort of "male ancestor more remote than a parent" is generally
called a "father" in the singular: "the founder of a race or family".
In fact, in the OED's sample quotations given to illustrate this
definition, the singular "father" appears only once, and there it
refers to the Biblical Adam himself, "the father of us all". (An
earlier quote from 1377 seems to include "fadre" which is probably
singular, but I can't read its archaic English.)

Where in Tolkien's writings do we see the word "father" used to refer
to a remote ancestor in this way? To the best of me knowledge, there
is only one example, found in the chapter "A Short Rest" of _The
Hobbit_:

"Durin, Durin!" said Thorin. "He was the father of the fathers of
the eldest race of Dwarves, the Longbeards, and my first ancestor:
I am his heir."

This fits the OED definition perfectly: Durin was literally the
"founder" of Thorin's race (and family). Moreover, Tolkien is careful
to make this usage clear: he calls Durin "the father of the fathers"
of the Longbeards, or substituting the plural definition, "the father
of the[ir] ancestors". There is absolutely no question here that
Thorin is not referring to his literal father.

Other than that, I know of no case where Tolkien uses "father" in this
way, though he does use the plural "fathers" (or the related plural
"sires") to refer to remote ancestors on a number of occasions.
(Obviously we must exclude Thorin's words about the Arkenstone when
searching for such examples, as their meaning is what we are trying to
deduce. To include them at this point as evidence for either meaning
would be circular reasoning.) And I know of no example by any author
at all where a person uses the possessive term "my father" to refer to
an ancestor more remote than their actual parent, at least without
additional clarification of that meaning. If it does exist, such
usage must be exceedingly rare.

Finally, <2T> cites a passage from an intermediate draft of "Durin's
Folk" in Appendix A of LotR that was published in [Peoples]. That
passage speaks of the Dwarves' fierce devotion to their children, and
goes on to say that

"The same is true of the attitude of children to parents. For an
injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving
revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as
'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that
the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge
Thror."

This does support the notion that Thorin might think of an earlier
king of his people as a "father". But even here (in a text that was
never in the end published) Tolkien is careful to put "parents" in
quotes: a formal distinction between literal and figurative parents is
maintained. Thorin does not give any such indication that he is not
speaking of his literal father.


So where does this leave Thorin's comments about Thrain? Thrain I was
certainly a remote ancestor, but he was in no sense "the founder of a
race or family". He was merely the founder of a short-lived kingdom,
one of many intermediate members of a family with a very long history
whose ultimate progenetor Durin was widely known (and revered by
Thorin). <2T> requires us to accept that Tolkien had Thorin use the
phrase "my father" in a highly non-standard way.

As for <1T>, it should be pointed out that if this non-standard usage
of "father" were accepted, all of the difficulties raised by Anderson
and Christopher Tolkien would be resolved as well. (There wouldn't
even have been any conflict during the Thrain/Thror reversal period,
as Thorin could have been referring to his then-grandfather Thrain as
"my father".) So at worst ("worst" for <1T>), Thorin's phrase "the
Arkenstone of my father" gives no net evidence in favor of _either_
side in this debate. But to the extent that Tolkien's usage of the
singular "father" was reasonably close to that outlined in the OED,
<2T>'s claim that Thorin meant to refer to his remote ancestor Thrain
I would seem to be ruled out.


Conclusions

In the end, there are reasons to favor and to doubt both the <1T> and
<2T> positions. Both require us to conclude that Tolkien made
multiple mistakes when writing _The Hobbit_. But where <1T> indicates
mistakes of a mostly "technical" nature (confusing two names or
overlooking a subtle implication of a phrase), <2T> indicates mistakes
that are much more fundamental (introducing a character with no
purpose or misusing the English language). Mistakes like those
required by <1T> are not uncommon in Tolkien's work, but mistakes like
those required by <2T> are very rare for him indeed.

Moreover, both Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have
explicitly asserted the <1T> position in their published discussions
of _The Hobbit_ and its history. They have almost certainly studied
that history in more detail than anyone else (with the possible
exceptions of Taum Santoski and John Rateliff, whose opinions on the
matter have not yet been publicized). And their words do not even
treat this as a point of contention: they both speak of <1T> as a
simple fact.

Thus, I remain firmly convinced of the <1T> position: I believe that
when _The Hobbit_ was first published, Tolkien had only imagined one
ancestor of Thorin's named Thrain.
Stan Brown
2004-06-28 03:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
Moreover, both Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have
explicitly asserted the <1T> position in their published discussions
of _The Hobbit_ and its history. They have almost certainly studied
that history in more detail than anyone else (with the possible
exceptions of Taum Santoski and John Rateliff, whose opinions on the
matter have not yet been publicized).
And Taum's, alas, are unlikely to be.

Steuard, I assume you've put this masterly essay on your site with
the Newsgroups FAQ? Surely we are unlikely to see a better answer to
the question.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-28 13:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Steuard Jensen
Moreover, both Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have
explicitly asserted the <1T> position in their published discussions
of _The Hobbit_ and its history. They have almost certainly studied
that history in more detail than anyone else (with the possible
exceptions of Taum Santoski and John Rateliff, whose opinions on the
matter have not yet been publicized).
And Taum's, alas, are unlikely to be.
I've held out some degree of hope that his opinions may yet be
reflected in the published book, at least to some degree.
Post by Stan Brown
Steuard, I assume you've put this masterly essay on your site with
the Newsgroups FAQ? Surely we are unlikely to see a better answer to
the question.
Not yet: I figured I'd give it a little while to collect feedback
before doing so. I'm already kicking myself for a few mistakes in
usage and spelling in my comments on tengwar, as I forgot to go back
and check Appendix E before posting (the conclusions are right, mind
you, but I just need to tweak the presentation a little). I don't
think the topic will end up in the FAQ itself in any case: it's not a
very common issue, particularly these days. But I do plan to put it
on my "essays" page before too long.

Thank you for the compliment, in any case!

Steuard Jensen
Michael Martinez
2004-06-28 20:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
Not yet: I figured I'd give it a little while to collect feedback
before doing so. I'm already kicking myself for a few mistakes in
usage and spelling in my comments on tengwar, as I forgot to go back
and check Appendix E before posting (the conclusions are right, mind
you, but I just need to tweak the presentation a little). I don't
think the topic will end up in the FAQ itself in any case: it's not a
very common issue, particularly these days. But I do plan to put it
on my "essays" page before too long.
Oh, good. More egregious errors and miscitations for people to point
to.

Steuard, the harm you have inflicted on news group discussions is
mounting almost to Conrad-like proportions.
Michael Martinez
2004-06-28 17:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Steuard Jensen
Moreover, both Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have
explicitly asserted the <1T> position in their published discussions
of _The Hobbit_ and its history. They have almost certainly studied
that history in more detail than anyone else (with the possible
exceptions of Taum Santoski and John Rateliff, whose opinions on the
matter have not yet been publicized).
And Taum's, alas, are unlikely to be.
Steuard, I assume you've put this masterly essay on your site with
the Newsgroups FAQ? Surely we are unlikely to see a better answer to
the question.
Let him fix the egregious errors of fact and remove all the nonsense
before he does anything like that.
Michael Martinez
2004-06-28 17:05:54 UTC
Permalink
***@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:<JkKDc.11$***@news.uchicago.edu>...
http://google.com/groups?selm=3b26e128.0406231006.15e2419b%40posting.google.com
Post by Steuard Jensen
(This message appears to be a thorough rewrite of an earlier version,
based in part on detailed responses by myself and Conrad Dunkerson.
http://google.com/groups?selm=3b26e128.0406200015.1a60046a%40posting.google.com
but it has clearly been superseded; this link is provided only for
reference in the <1T> section below.)
It is not a rewrite of the June 20 message. The June 20 message was a
repost of a couple of much earlier messages, snipped and pasted
together.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Summer 1936: Tolkien writes "Stage D" (the first version of chapters
13 and 15-19), "Stage E" (the first full typescript), and "Stage
F" (a second typescript that was apparently not used, due at
least in part to numerous typographical errors). [AH]
In [Treason], Christopher Tolkien says that "At one point,
however, Thror and Thrain were reversed in my father's
typescript, and this survived into the first proof." That
typescript was probably "Stage E", given that the error made it
into the proofs (and that "Stage F" wasn't used).
But note the wording here! The reversal of Thror and Thrain
occurred at ONE point in the typescript, and that ONE reversal
survived into the first proof (Christopher refers a bit later in
[Treason] to "that one error" in the proofs).
You have misunderstood the following sentence (which you cited later
on):

...Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror.

The error was extended all the way through the proofs.
Post by Steuard Jensen
[A&I] tells us that by the time he drew this version, Tolkien
"had already labored on it [Thror's Map] for years", which
certainly suggests that he produced a number of versions along
the way. [AH] does not comment directly on this point, but its
statement that the submitted map was "probably a variant" of
[A&I #85] certainly suggests that other intermediate versions
existed. We have no information on how many intermediate
versions there were or what text they contained.
Even if there had been 50 previous variations, the map which WAS
submitted (reproduced in the second edition of THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT)
contained the critical wording. What might have come before is
irrelevant.
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> naturally sees this as the first introduction of Thrain I, the
distant ancestor of Thror who first founded the realm of Erebor and
was King there. He has no detailed history as yet, but he has been
deliberately introduced into the story.
No. It is merely one instance of the first introduction of the first
Thrain.
Post by Steuard Jensen
But this lone mention of a King Thrain is very different than those
other historical allusions, because a reader would have to go
through so many deductive steps to recognize it at all.
This is just plain silly. One cannot devise any sort of historical
narrative about anything based on the bits and pieces of "depth"
scattered throughout THE HOBBIT. Even the history of Erebor itself is
told in vague terms. The events are not dated, peoples are not named,
etc.

Nor does this contrivance have any bearing on the facts.
Post by Steuard Jensen
So Christopher's statement here should not be taken as absolutely
authoritative: he does not know the solution, and has not fully
studied _The Hobbit_'s history. Still, even when writing [Treason]
he was more of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in
these debates (among other things, he was present and often
actively involved throughout the book's development), so his
opinion should carry some weight. As far as I know, he has never
corrected it or otherwise indicated that he has changed his view,
despite a clear opportunity to do so in [Peoples] if he had wished.
That is absolutely wrong. Christopher Tolkien would have had to
examine the history of THE HOBBIT, a project he had left to Taum
Santoski and John Rateliff. He did not even have access to the
papers, which had long been stored at Marquette University. While he
could have asked for copies of them, there is no indication that he
did so when he was working on THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH.

You've already mangled the facts considerably, Steuard, and you
haven't even brought the chronology to October 30, 1936.
Post by Steuard Jensen
21 Feb 1937: Tolkien writes to Allen & Unwin that he will retain all
of the proofs until he has the complete set. He says that
"There are some minor discrepancies that come out in print and
make it desirable to have the whole story together before
passing for press. ...very few corrections would be necessary,
but for defects in the copy itself, and unfortunate
discrepancies in the text (and between the text and
illustrations)."
It seems that this must refer at least in part to the reversal
"Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occcurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror. It is
hard to believe that this extraordinary concern was unconnected
with the words on 'Thror's Map' in _The Hobbit_: 'Here of old
was _Thrain_ [CT's emphasis] King under the mountain'; but the
solution of this conundrum, if it can be found, belongs with
the textual history of _The Hobbit_, and I shall not pursue it
further."
Again, to clarify what this says as compared to what both sides
of this discussion have asserted in the past, the proofs had the
reversed genealogy in just one place. Tolkien went through them
from front to back and reversed it everywhere on the proofs, and
then went back through and restored the original (and final)
order.
You have completely garbled the story. All that happened was the
proofs replicated the name-switch (erroneous in the first occurrence,
apparently intentional in subsequent occurrences), and Tolkien
corrected the proofs throughout to restore the correct order of Thorin
- Thrain - Thror. Tolkien did not mark the proofs to switch the names
and then switch them book.

Page proofs are replications of the typesetting. They show you how
the book will appear in print. The typesetter could not have known
that the name-switch was accidental and would NOT have attempted to
correct the error on his or her own (I have worked with many
typesetters and they faithfully reproduce every typo and error of fact
an author accidentally inserts into a text in addition to occasionally
accidentally introducing a few of their own).

Furthermore, the discrepancy between map and text indicates that the
Thrain on the map is Thorin's grandfather. Tolkien restored the text
to show Thrain as Thorin's father, and therefore the Thrain on the map
was restored to being some other ancestor.

Hence, the <1T> position is further weakened by the fact of Tolkien's
error correcting. If he had left the name switch in place, the <1T>
position would have been validated (in fact, there probably would
never have been a second Thrain at all).

So, at this point, you've gone so far off the deep end, I doubt there
is any way to salvage your argument.
Post by Steuard Jensen
1949-50: Tolkien writes draft T 4 of the "Tale of Years" for _The Lord
"2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm of
Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and becomes 'King under the
Mountain'.[33]"
"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged."
(All this comes from [Peoples].)
At this point in time, Tolkien had not created a genealogy for
Thorin's family for inclusion in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. As estblished
by the first edition of THE HOBBIT, named members of Thorin's family
included Thror, (Thrain the Old), Thrain, Dain, Nain, Thorin's nephews
Fili and Kili, their unnamed mother, and an implied younger brother.
Balin's father Fundin had been named but no connections had been made
between him and Dwalin or between the various members of the Company
and Thorin. Balin is said to be "old-looking" in THE HOBBBIT.
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> is now faced with a serious difficulty: why did Tolkien write
that Thror founded Erebor if he had deliberately introduced the
earlier King Thrain I?
Tolkien wrote no such thing.
Post by Steuard Jensen
The <2T> position reads Christopher Tolkien's comment that "the
history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged" as a reference to
the detailed genealogy and family tree all the way from Moria to
Thorin's generation in "Durin's Folk". In particular, this
position does not believe that Christopher's comment here precludes
a prior emergence of the part of that history involving Thrain I.
As you cited further on, Christopher specifically states that "in [the
first draft of 'Durin's Folk'] and its accompanying genealogical
table...it is seen that an important advance had been made from the
text T 4 of the Tale of Years." (THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, p. 276).

Since Christopher did not investigate the HOBBIT textual history, his
comments in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH do not have any more bearing
on the facts of the first edition HOBBIT than his comment in THE
TREASON OF ISENGARD.

But it is clear that "Durin's Folk" and the genealogy were developed
AFTER the T 4 text was written.
Post by Steuard Jensen
"The extension of the line beyond Thror appears to have had its
starting-point in my father's explanation of the words on
Thror's Map in _The Hobbit_ ('Here of old was Thrain King under
the Mountain') as referring not to Thrain son of Thror but to a
remote ancestor also named Thrain: see VII.160."
(The reference is to passage in [Treason] cited earlier.)
<2T>'s understanding of all this is that Tolkien has finally made
the history of Thrain I explicit rather than implicit, and fleshed
it out in detail for the first time in "Of Durin's Line"...
No. <2T>'s understanding of all this is that Tolkien has finally
organized and expanded the family (and history) which had emerged with
the first edition of THE HOBBIT.
Post by Steuard Jensen
...No further changes to the text of _The Hobbit_ were made, because
Tolkien viewed it as being consistent with the earlier Thrain from
the start, but the prefatory note was added for the benefit of
readers who had not thought through the map's implications. And
Christopher Tolkien's comment about "Thrain" on Thror's Map being
the "starting-point" simply means that the map was the first
introduction of the character.
No, Christopher's comment is about the PREFATORY NOTE being the
"starting-point" (in Christopher's estimation -- he carefully says
"the extension of the line beyond Thror APPEARS [emphasis mine] to
have had its starting point in my father's explanation of the words on
Thror's map in _THE HOBBIT_").
Post by Steuard Jensen
... Large changes requiring re-setting of the early
chapters could easily introduce many new textual errors, while
Tolkien had spent years trying to eliminate the existing ones.)
In the final text, Tolkien only introduced one brief rewrite (Thorin's
account of the history of Erebor), which was not very substantial. He
extensively modified the proofs for THE LORD OF THE RINGS,
occasionally requiring significant retypesetting despite his best
efforts to keep the changes small, so he wasn't afraid to make changes
on proofs.
Post by Steuard Jensen
24 Aug 1965: Tolkien submits his changes for the third edition of _The
Hobbit_ [Bib]. Most of the relevant changes relate to the
history of Erebor in Thror's time as related in chapter 1, and
"and came with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
[became]
"and came back with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
Hardly. The original passage read:

Long ago in my grandfather's time some dwarves were driven out of
the far North, and came with all their wealth and their tools to
this Mountain on the map. There they mined and and they tunnelled
and they made huge halls and great workshops....

The revised passage reads:

Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out
of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and their
tools to this Mountain on the map. It had been discovered by my
far ancestor, Thrain the Old, but now they mined and they
tunnelled and they made huger halls and greater workshops....

In the original conception, Thror's family was NOT driven out of the
north. In the new conception ("Durin's Folk") they WERE driven out of
the north. The second edition of THE HOBBIT doesn't explain this
point, and so Tolkien changed it in 1965 to agree with the LoTR text.
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> on the other hand would probably describe these changes
As I have repeatedly stated through the years, you are by no means fit
to state my positions for me, as you continually bungle the job. See
above regarding the chief significance of the textual change.
Post by Steuard Jensen
<1T> starts out at a disadvantage: it requires us to believe that
Tolkien made a significant error by using the name Thrain on the
map, and furthermore that after he became aware of that error, he
eventually gave up on fixing it and let it remain unexplained until
the note introduced for the second edition. But that is its only
difficulty, at least based on the aspects of textual history
discussed above.
Hardly, since the naming of the Arkenstone was never altered in the
original HOBBIT edition typescript and proofs. That is, while Tolkien
was repeating the "Thorin - Thror - Thrain" error in the story, he
maintained "Arkenstone of Thrain" without altering it to "Arkenstone
of Thror".

Furthermore, the original text does NOT say that Thror founded Erebor.
It doesn't SAY who founded the kingdom under the Mountain, or when it
was founded.
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> does not require us to assume that Tolkien made a serious
error on the map, but it does require us to believe that he
invented the character of Thrain I for no apparent purpose in the
[snip]

Bullshit. The invention of the older Thrain lends historical depth to
the story. Tolkien referred to the halls of Erebor as ancient, and he
clearly intended the reader to understand that Thorin had a huge
family with multiple halls, Dain of the Iron Hills being only one
example of other lords who maintained residences outside of Erebor.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Despite the concern that Tolkien showed about the genealogy in
his revisions of the proofs,
There is no "despite". You simply butchered the facts and
regurgitated them in a form contrived to support the <1T> position.

In my opinion, Steuard, your ability to recap the history of other
people's discussions is as miserable and humialiatingly awful as it
has ever been. You continue to fail to restrain your inherent
tendencies to rewrite and obliterate what other people say by putting
words into their mouths.

You are about the worst historian these news groups could ever have
been inflicted with.
Post by Steuard Jensen
2) The illustration "Conversation with Smaug"
[snippage throughout]
Post by Steuard Jensen
The picture has many interesting features, but the only one which
might be relevant to this discussion is the inscription on a large pot
of treasure at the bottom left. The inscription is written primarily
in Tengwar, and [AH] translates it as follows: "gold th[portion
obscured by ladder] Thrain / accursed be the thief". Not translated
in [AH] are the two TH runes below the Tengwar inscription.
The illustration is in perfect agreement with this. Thus, if Thorin's
father Thrain had any of his own gold stored in Erebor, it would have
ended up in the main hoard and could easily appear in Tolkien's
drawing. And I can see no reason that Thrain should not label his
treasure as his own or curse those who might steal it.
There is no indication that Thorin's father HAD any treasure, nor that
he would have put inscriptions upon it. So, you are making a huge
assumption here.
Post by Steuard Jensen
But I claim further that this entire argument is beside the point,
because the pot of gold bears the names and initials of _both_ Thror
and Thrain.
The repetition of the TH rune must be SHOWN to indicate the names of
Thror and Thrain. Such proof can only come from J.R.R. Tolkien
himself, in the form of an explanation of or description of the jar
and its inscription.

I could assert equal authority that the two TH runes represent Thror
and Thror, or Thrain and Thrain, and Thorin and Thorin -- because we
don't know if they are supposed to go all the way around the jar.

Nor is there any reason to suppose that, if Thrain is putting his name
on a jar, he has any reason to include the first part of his father's
name in a separate location. Normally, an inscription naming a father
reads much like the texts introduce the father: "Thrain son of Thror".
So, if Tolkien had intended a reference to Thror, he would have put
it in the Tengwar. Which leads us to...
Post by Steuard Jensen
paired "TH TH" runes "are the initials of Thror and Thrain.") But I
claim that the Tengwar inscription includes Thror's name as well.
gold th_o?{r|n} thrain
akerst {d|b}e {d|dh|the} thef
So putting this all together, my best guess at the full Tengwar
gold Thror Thrain
accursed be the thief
I can see no other reasonable candidate reading of the second word
given the constraints above.
I will concede that the consensus of opinion agrees with your
transcription:

http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/ostadan/files/writing.pdf
Post by Steuard Jensen
Thus, I claim that this picture tells us absolutely nothing about the
two Thrains debate. It simply illustrates a fact that everyone agrees
upon: that when _The Hobbit_ was published, Tolkien believed that
Thror and Thrain together were very wealthy before Smaug drove them
out of Erebor.
Conceded.
Post by Steuard Jensen
3) Points related to the Arkenstone
More snippage follows.
Post by Steuard Jensen
But that is not the whole story. Thorin also says more than once that
the Arkenstone belonged to "his father" specifically. In "The Clouds
"'That stone was my father's, and is mine,' he [Thorin] said. 'Why
'But how came you by the heirloom of my house [...]?'
This closely parallels Anderson's comments above, and like Anderson,
Christopher Tolkien unquestionably takes the <1T> perspective. But
the difficulty that Anderson has pointed out certainly affects the
<1T>/<2T> debate.
Douglas Anderson consulted with Christopher Tolkien on some of the
more frequently debated issues regarding THE HOBBIT (and Middle-earth
in general). There is no indication in either the book or his first
response to me that he consulted with Christopher Tolkien on this
point. He may followup with further commentary, as I sent him a brief
explanation of my interest in whether there was an "Arkenstone of
Thror" passage in any version of the pre-publication texts. He has
not committed to following up and has not involved himself in this
debate.

All that said, much of this <1T> stuff is circular. That is, it is
founded upon Christopher's statement in THE TREASON OF ISENGARD.
Since Christopher said there that there was only one Thrain, people
assume he was correct (despite his careful reservation in conceding
that he had NOT studied the texts of THE HOBBIT), and on the basis of
that assumption repeat the assertion without examining the matter
further.

Douglas Anderson DID look for the Thror-Thrain references, in part at
least, because of this issue -- or so I understand.

However, as I have shown, the late chapters include other passages
which have not been taken into consideration.
Post by Steuard Jensen
So what should we make of these statements that the Arkenstone
belonged to Thorin's father?
Nothing. "Father" is not used in any consistent fashion by Tolkien, as
I have repeatedly demonstrated through numerous citations.
Post by Steuard Jensen
(Alternately, it is even possible that recognizing this difficulty was
a factor in convincing him to change the genealogy back to the
original Thorin - Thrain - Thror order: Tolkien may have concluded
that cleaning up every subtle connection like this would make the
reversal a greater challenge than he'd thought.) Once again, the <1T>
position is forced to claim that Tolkien repeatedly overlooked a
mistake, but at least in this case it's a relatively subtle one.
You have so twisted this into a convoluted mishmash that it is not
clear what mistake you are referring to.
Post by Steuard Jensen
As for the <2T> position, it is also faced with a challenge here: for
<2T>, the difficulty that Anderson outlines is present from the very
first published version of the text (as opposed to the <1T> case,
where this conflict was only introduced when Appendix A to LotR was
written).
There is no difficulty here.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Other than that, I know of no case where Tolkien uses "father" in this
way, though he does use the plural "fathers" (or the related plural
"sires") to refer to remote ancestors on a number of occasions.
Distinctions between plural and singular forms are insubstantial. You
have used this as a crutch to shore up your argument, but unless you
can show that Tolkien drew the distinction you draw, it has no bearing
on the issue.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Finally, <2T> cites a passage from an intermediate draft of "Durin's
Folk" in Appendix A of LotR that was published in [Peoples]. That
passage speaks of the Dwarves' fierce devotion to their children, and
goes on to say that
"The same is true of the attitude of children to parents. For an
injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving
revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as
'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that
the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge
Thror."
This does support the notion that Thorin might think of an earlier
king of his people as a "father".
The citation refutes your crutch, Steuard. It shows that Tolkien uses
the singular form of the word "father" to refer to something other
than a direct biological father preceding a child by one generation.
Thror would have been Thorin's "father" while he was alive, in this
context.
Post by Steuard Jensen
So where does this leave Thorin's comments about Thrain? Thrain I was
certainly a remote ancestor, but he was in no sense "the founder of a
race or family".
Nor was Thror, nor was Thrain II, but in the published "Durin's Folk",
Tolkien writes:

Then Thrain turned to Dain, and said: 'But surely my own kin will
not desert me?' 'No,' said Dain. 'You are the father of our Folk,
and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter
Khazad-dum....'
Post by Steuard Jensen
... <2T> requires us to accept that Tolkien had Thorin use the
phrase "my father" in a highly non-standard way.
Fortunately, Tolkien didn't feel himself bound to conform to your
"standards".
Post by Steuard Jensen
Conclusions
In the end, there are reasons to favor and to doubt both the <1T> and
<2T> positions. Both require us to conclude that Tolkien made
multiple mistakes when writing _The Hobbit_. But where <1T> indicates
mistakes of a mostly "technical" nature (confusing two names or
overlooking a subtle implication of a phrase), <2T> indicates mistakes
that are much more fundamental (introducing a character with no
purpose or misusing the English language).
Bullshit.

Try getting the facts straight, without throwing in all the rewrites
and extravagant assumptions and contrivances.

You MIGHT begin to see why there really were two Thrains in the
original edition of THE HOBBIT.

The fact you resorted to convoluted arguments to justify the <1T>
position clearly shows you are struggling to rationalize your
position.
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-29 04:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
(This message appears to be a thorough rewrite of an earlier version,
based in part on detailed responses by myself and Conrad Dunkerson.
...
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
but [the earlier version] has clearly been superseded...
It is not a rewrite of the June 20 message. The June 20 message was
a repost of a couple of much earlier messages, snipped and pasted
together.
I recognized that it was very different (as I said, the old message
had clearly been superseded), but I went ahead and called the new one
a "thorough rewrite" because it looked like even some typographical
errors had remained the same between the two (such as the one that's
still present in your transcription of Anderson's translation of the
tengwar in "Conversation with Smaug"). But when and if I revise my
discussion, I'll be happy to change that wording.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
In [Treason], Christopher Tolkien says that "At one point,
however, Thror and Thrain were reversed in my father's
typescript, and this survived into the first proof." That
typescript was probably "Stage E", given that the error made it
into the proofs (and that "Stage F" wasn't used).
But note the wording here! The reversal of Thror and Thrain
occurred at ONE point in the typescript, and that ONE reversal
survived into the first proof (Christopher refers a bit later in
[Treason] to "that one error" in the proofs).
You have misunderstood the following sentence (which you cited later
...Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror.
The error was extended all the way through the proofs.
Exactly: the error was extended all the way through the proofs, _on_
the proofs. Otherwise, Santoski and Rateliff would have found this by
examining not just the proofs, but the typescript as well. And no
"minute" examination would have been necessary: the printed proofs
would be easy to read, as would Tolkien's corrections to them. As I
quoted above, Christopher Tolkien refers (twice) to a reversal at just
one point in the submitted typescript (and hence in the proofs as
Tolkien received them).

But I'm surprised to find you arguing this point: when I realized that
we'd been misreading this passage, that was the single biggest blow to
the <1T> theory that I found in my research for this essay. I'll say
more about that below.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
[A&I] tells us that by the time he drew this version, Tolkien
"had already labored on it [Thror's Map] for years", which
certainly suggests that he produced a number of versions along
the way. [AH] does not comment directly on this point, but its
statement that the submitted map was "probably a variant" of
[A&I #85] certainly suggests that other intermediate versions
existed. We have no information on how many intermediate
versions there were or what text they contained.
Even if there had been 50 previous variations, the map which WAS
submitted (reproduced in the second edition of THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT)
contained the critical wording. What might have come before is
irrelevant.
I completely agree; I just included this to make sure that I'd
included everything that we know about the map's history. I didn't
want to mislead people into thinking that only three versions of the
map had ever been drawn, just in case someone found that significant.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> naturally sees this as the first introduction of Thrain I,
the distant ancestor of Thror who first founded the realm of
Erebor and was King there. He has no detailed history as yet,
but he has been deliberately introduced into the story.
No. It is merely one instance of the first introduction of the
first Thrain.
Thanks for the correction. Again, if I revise this thing, I'll be
sure to include it.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
But this lone mention of a King Thrain is very different than those
other historical allusions, because a reader would have to go
through so many deductive steps to recognize it at all.
This is just plain silly. One cannot devise any sort of historical
narrative about anything based on the bits and pieces of "depth"
scattered throughout THE HOBBIT. Even the history of Erebor itself
is told in vague terms. The events are not dated, peoples are not
named, etc.
Oh, certainly, I agree that we shouldn't expect to be told the fine
points of _The Hobbit_'s backstory. My point above was not that the
details of Thrain I's history weren't mapped out, it was that most
readers probably wouldn't even have noticed that he was there. (Even
those who noticed the discrepancy would be fairly likely to conclude
that there was just an error on the map.) That's very different from
the reference to, say, King Bladorthin: we know practically nothing
about him, but even his brief mention adds to the sense of historical
depth in the book.

"King Thrain" on the map could very easily be regarded as a simple
error by readers even if <2T> is correct, and nothing in the rest of
the text makes it _obvious_ that it wasn't. (Given that both
Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have reached the conclusion
that the map was originally in error, you've got to admit that must
have been a pretty common "mistake".) And if people thought they'd
found an error on the map, that would if anything _detract_ from the
sense of historical veracity of the book.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
So Christopher's statement here should not be taken as absolutely
authoritative: he does not know the solution, and has not fully
studied _The Hobbit_'s history. Still, even when writing [Treason]
he was more of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in
these debates (among other things, he was present and often
actively involved throughout the book's development), so his
opinion should carry some weight. As far as I know, he has never
corrected it or otherwise indicated that he has changed his view,
despite a clear opportunity to do so in [Peoples] if he had wished.
That is absolutely wrong.
Which part? That Christopher's statement shouldn't be taken as
authoritative? That he's more of an expert on these matters than any
of us? That he was present and involved throughout the book's
development? Or that he has never publicly changed his mind on this?

I can't see anything wrong with any of those statements.
Post by Michael Martinez
Christopher Tolkien would have had to examine the history of THE
HOBBIT, a project he had left to Taum Santoski and John Rateliff.
Didn't you just quote me as saying something to that effect? Ah, yes:
"he does not know the solution, and has not fully studied _The
Hobbit_'s history." (I stand by my "fully", as he must have studied
it at least a little in order to make the comments about it that he
did.)
Post by Michael Martinez
He did not even have access to the papers, which had long been
stored at Marquette University. While he could have asked for
copies of them, there is no indication that he did so when he was
working on THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH.
I didn't say that he had studied this in depth, I said that he was
more familiar with this history than any of us. (At the very least,
it sounds like when writing [Treason] he was well aware of some
results of Santoski and Rateliff's work, whereas we only know of those
results through him.)
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
It seems that this must refer at least in part to the reversal
"Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occcurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror. It is
hard to believe that this extraordinary concern was unconnected
with the words on 'Thror's Map' in _The Hobbit_: 'Here of old
was _Thrain_ [CT's emphasis] King under the mountain'; but the
solution of this conundrum, if it can be found, belongs with
the textual history of _The Hobbit_, and I shall not pursue it
further."
Again, to clarify what this says as compared to what both sides
of this discussion have asserted in the past, the proofs had the
reversed genealogy in just one place. Tolkien went through them
from front to back and reversed it everywhere on the proofs, and
then went back through and restored the original (and final)
order.
You have completely garbled the story. All that happened was the
proofs replicated the name-switch (erroneous in the first
occurrence, apparently intentional in subsequent occurrences), and
Tolkien corrected the proofs throughout to restore the correct order
of Thorin - Thrain - Thror. Tolkien did not mark the proofs to
switch the names and then switch them book.
I haven't talked about this with John Rateliff, Christopher Tolkien,
Douglas Anderson, or anyone else who has seen the proofs, so all I
have to go on is what Christopher wrote, quoted above. The whole
section quoted above is talking about the proofs, not the typescript:
the one reversal in the typescript was already said to have survived
onto the first proofs (quoted above). Yes, I was surprised to realize
this, too, but I find the conclusion inescapable, unfortunately.

[snip definition of "page proofs", which I certainly understand]

[In what follows, I'm pretty sure that you're writing in the context
of our previous understanding of this passage: that Tolkien reversed
Thror and Thrain throughout _The Hobbit_ in his final typescript, and
only restored the Thorin - Thrain - Thror order on the proofs.]
Post by Michael Martinez
Furthermore, the discrepancy between map and text indicates that the
Thrain on the map is Thorin's grandfather. Tolkien restored the
text to show Thrain as Thorin's father, and therefore the Thrain on
the map was restored to being some other ancestor.
Hence, the <1T> position is further weakened by the fact of Tolkien's
error correcting. If he had left the name switch in place, the <1T>
position would have been validated (in fact, there probably would
never have been a second Thrain at all).
If you can convince me that I _did_ get the history wrong above, I'll
be overjoyed! Probably the most serious weakness in <1T> is its need
to assume that Tolkien mistakenly reversed Thror and Thrain on both
submitted versions of Thror's Map ([A&I #85 and #86]), never noticing
his error. If both versions of the map were drawn and submitted
during a period when Tolkien had made that reversal as a conscious
choice, then this isn't a weakness at all.

That would still leave unanswered the question of why Tolkien didn't
change the map when he later changed the text, but it's not hard for
<1T> to suggest plausible explanations. Most significant is the fact
that Tolkien gave up on his attempts to control the map's presentation
in his letter of 5 Feb 1937, weeks before he even saw the proofs. By
that point, he may have done his best to simply forget about the map,
and thus not noticed that it disagreed with the changes that he made
on the proofs. Or perhaps he just didn't think it was worth fighting
about: he'd battled with the production department for well over a
month on a previous point about this map, and they basically got their
way completely. He might have even tried to change the map at some
point after changing the proofs and been refused because work on it
was too far advanced, just as happened when he tried to submit changes
to the runes on 13 Apr 1937. In any case, these difficulties seem
_far_ less serious than the "he just got it backward" basis of <1T>
that's required in the chronology that I think is right.

As for <2T>, you say that after the textual changes, "Thrain on the
map was restored to being some other ancestor". I don't think this
would be a "restoration" at all: we both agree that in the original
story before publication, there was indisputably only one Thrain. If
the map's Thrain was intended to be Thorin's grandfather when it was
drawn, then the only hint of the earlier Thrain in the whole book at
the time of submission seems to be the word "heirloom" used of the
Arkenstone, which is a pretty meager basis for extrapolating a whole
new character. Thus, the changes to the text would be the first
introduction of Thrain I... but he wasn't introduced into the text
itself at all! I would find it very difficult to believe that Tolkien
would change the text to make the map imply a new character but not
add a single direct reference to that character in the text. (That
difficulty is present for <2T> in either version of the history, and I
think I discussed it at least briefly in my essay.)

So, yeah, if you can convince me that I'm wrong on this point, I'll
welcome it with open arms, as it makes the case for <1T> a good bit
stronger.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
1949-50: Tolkien writes draft T 4 of the "Tale of Years" for _The Lord
"2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm of
Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and becomes 'King under the
Mountain'.[33]"
"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged."
At this point in time, Tolkien had not created a genealogy for
Thorin's family for inclusion in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. As estblished
by the first edition of THE HOBBIT, named members of Thorin's family
included Thror, (Thrain the Old), Thrain, Dain, Nain, Thorin's nephews
Fili and Kili, their unnamed mother, and an implied younger brother.
Balin's father Fundin had been named but no connections had been made
between him and Dwalin or between the various members of the Company
and Thorin. Balin is said to be "old-looking" in THE HOBBBIT.
Ok... but I don't see how that's relevant. Are you just clarifying
the <2T> position for me here? Because what you said above sounds an
awful lot like the first sentence of my summary of <2T> that you
quoted below, albeit in expanded form. My summary said that <2T>
reads Christopher's comment as "a reference to the detailed genealogy
and family tree all the way from Moria to Thorin's generation in
'Durin's Folk'". You'll have to clarify what you meant here, I'm
afraid.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> is now faced with a serious difficulty: why did Tolkien write
that Thror founded Erebor if he had deliberately introduced the
earlier King Thrain I?
Tolkien wrote no such thing.
Er, which part of "Thror... founds the realm of Erebor" are you
suggesting that Tolkien didn't write, exactly? My comment there was
almost a direct quote.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
The <2T> position reads Christopher Tolkien's comment that "the
history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged" as a reference to
the detailed genealogy and family tree all the way from Moria to
Thorin's generation in "Durin's Folk". In particular, this
position does not believe that Christopher's comment here precludes
a prior emergence of the part of that history involving Thrain I.
As you cited further on, Christopher specifically states that "in [the
first draft of 'Durin's Folk'] and its accompanying genealogical
table...it is seen that an important advance had been made from the
text T 4 of the Tale of Years." (THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, p. 276).
Are you just agreeing with my summary here?
Post by Michael Martinez
Since Christopher did not investigate the HOBBIT textual history,
his comments in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH do not have any more
bearing on the facts of the first edition HOBBIT than his comment in
THE TREASON OF ISENGARD.
I think it's clear that by the time that he wrote [Peoples],
Christopher had at least studied the history of the development of
"Durin's Folk" and its relationship to revisions to _The Hobbit_ in
considerably more depth than he had when he wrote [Treason]. And I
think it's reasonably likely that he'd had a conversation or two with
John Rateliff or Douglas Anderson in the interim as well. But in
general I agree: he's never done a truly thorough study of the history
of _The Hobbit_, and I don't think that I've suggested otherwise.

Still, as I said before, I'm pretty sure that he knows more about it
than you or I do, since he's our _source_ for some crucial pieces of
that history. Even if you don't grant my claim of "more", I think we
can agree that he knows rather a lot about its history. Are his
comments authoritative? Certainly not. But I think they're worth
listening to.
Post by Michael Martinez
But it is clear that "Durin's Folk" and the genealogy were developed
AFTER the T 4 text was written.
And indeed, that was made clear in my essay. Under 14 Sep 1950, I
wrote:

"Somewhere around this time (certainly between the earlier Tale of
Years version T 4 and the next one T 5, written sometime before 22
Oct 1954), Tolkien writes the first draft of "Durin's Folk" for
Appendix A of LotR (this draft is entitled "Of Durin's Line").
This text, published in [Peoples], contains the first known full
discussion of Thrain I's history, including the first extended
genealogical table".

I'm glad to see that we agree, anyway.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
"The extension of the line beyond Thror appears to have had its
starting-point in my father's explanation of the words on
Thror's Map in _The Hobbit_ ('Here of old was Thrain King under
the Mountain') as referring not to Thrain son of Thror but to a
remote ancestor also named Thrain: see VII.160."
<2T>'s understanding of all this is that Tolkien has finally made
the history of Thrain I explicit rather than implicit, and fleshed
it out in detail for the first time in "Of Durin's Line"...
No. <2T>'s understanding of all this is that Tolkien has finally
organized and expanded the family (and history) which had emerged with
the first edition of THE HOBBIT.
Again, thank you for correcting my wording here. I don't think that
what you've said is that different in intent than what I said, but
I'll obviously defer to your phrasing of the issue.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
...No further changes to the text of _The Hobbit_ were made, because
Tolkien viewed it as being consistent with the earlier Thrain from
the start, but the prefatory note was added for the benefit of
readers who had not thought through the map's implications. And
Christopher Tolkien's comment about "Thrain" on Thror's Map being
the "starting-point" simply means that the map was the first
introduction of the character.
No, Christopher's comment is about the PREFATORY NOTE being the
"starting-point" (in Christopher's estimation -- he carefully says
"the extension of the line beyond Thror APPEARS [emphasis mine] to
have had its starting point in my father's explanation of the words on
Thror's map in _THE HOBBIT_").
Ah, ok. I mistakenly guessed that your take on this would be to opt
for a broader reading of Christopher's statement; I have no idea why I
didn't just stick with the "Christopher's guesses aren't
authoritative" angle. Once again, thanks, and I'll correct this if I
revise the essay.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
... Large changes requiring re-setting of the early chapters
could easily introduce many new textual errors, while Tolkien
had spent years trying to eliminate the existing ones.)
In the final text, Tolkien only introduced one brief rewrite
(Thorin's account of the history of Erebor), which was not very
substantial. He extensively modified the proofs for THE LORD OF THE
RINGS, occasionally requiring significant retypesetting despite his
best efforts to keep the changes small, so he wasn't afraid to make
changes on proofs.
On the other hand, his letter to Allen & Unwin of 23 Jun 1965 leading
up to the third edition _explicitly_ states that the planned full
re-setting of the book was what convinced him that the time had come
to make those changes in the text. I think that Tolkien really was
hesitant to cause any more re-setting than he felt was absolutely
necessary, even though his changes often led to that anyway (that
seems to have been precisely what happened with the first proofs of
_The Hobbit_, for example).
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
24 Aug 1965: Tolkien submits his changes for the third edition of _The
Hobbit_ [Bib]. Most of the relevant changes relate to the
history of Erebor in Thror's time as related in chapter 1, and
"and came with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
[became]
"and came back with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
Hardly.
Hardly what? "Hardly read as follows"? I'll admit that I snipped
things down to focus on some essential features, but I didn't see that
as much of a distortion. I guess your claim is that I've left out
potential changes to the history relating to Thror specifically;
perhaps I'll add those back in for a future revision.
Post by Michael Martinez
Long ago in my grandfather's time some dwarves were driven out of
the far North, and came with all their wealth and their tools to
this Mountain on the map. There they mined and and they tunnelled
and they made huge halls and great workshops....
Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out
of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and their
tools to this Mountain on the map. It had been discovered by my
far ancestor, Thrain the Old, but now they mined and they
tunnelled and they made huger halls and greater workshops....
In the original conception, Thror's family was NOT driven out of the
north. In the new conception ("Durin's Folk") they WERE driven out of
the north. The second edition of THE HOBBIT doesn't explain this
point, and so Tolkien changed it in 1965 to agree with the LoTR text.
Huh? In the original version, Thror wasn't mentioned by name, but
it's quite a stretch to claim that means he _wasn't_ driven out of the
north. In fact, after we're told that the Dwarves were driven out of
the north and came to Erebor, we read that

"they grew immensely rich and famous, and my grandfather was King
under the Mountain".

While it's not _necessary_ to conclude that Thorin's grandfather came
with them, that is certainly one very natural reading of the history.
(In particular, the phrasing here would be very odd if Thorin's
grandfather had already been king when the other Dwarves arrived: his
kingship is linked directly with the newfound wealth of the Dwarves
from the north.) On what do you base your claim that "Thror's family
was NOT driven out of the north" in the original version?
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> on the other hand would probably describe these changes
As I have repeatedly stated through the years, you are by no means
fit to state my positions for me, as you continually bungle the job.
See above regarding the chief significance of the textual change.
Excellent. As I have repeatedly stated through the years, when I tell
you my understanding of your positions (often after a citation of your
actual words, or a reference to them like I gave at the beginning of
the essay), you get the opportunity to point out where I have failed
to understand your meaning. This is a well-accepted technique for
reducing miscommunication in discussions. And I'm glad to see that
you've done your part and explained what I've gotten wrong.

In the case of an essay like this, I _have_ to explain what your
position is if I want to be balanced at all, or if I want to give
context for why I prefer my own position. There's no way around it.
But that's the beauty of posting the essay here on the newsgroup: you
get a chance to tell me what I've gotten wrong in front of the same
audience, and I can incorporate those corrections when I revise my
work. Everybody wins.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<1T> starts out at a disadvantage: it requires us to believe that
Tolkien made a significant error by using the name Thrain on the
map, and furthermore that after he became aware of that error, he
eventually gave up on fixing it and let it remain unexplained until
the note introduced for the second edition. But that is its only
difficulty, at least based on the aspects of textual history
discussed above.
Hardly, since the naming of the Arkenstone was never altered in the
original HOBBIT edition typescript and proofs. That is, while
Tolkien was repeating the "Thorin - Thror - Thrain" error in the
story, he maintained "Arkenstone of Thrain" without altering it to
"Arkenstone of Thror".
That's why I specified "at least based on the aspects of textual
history discussed above". In the introduction to the essay, I
explained that I would be discussing issues related to the Arkenstone
in their own section.
Post by Michael Martinez
Furthermore, the original text does NOT say that Thror founded
Erebor. It doesn't SAY who founded the kingdom under the Mountain,
or when it was founded.
Absolutely true. But I do think that is the most natural reading,
even if it's not the only one... and Tolkien's initial summary
Erebor's history in the Tale of Years draft T 4 certainly seems to
back it up as his intent.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> does not require us to assume that Tolkien made a serious
error on the map, but it does require us to believe that he
invented the character of Thrain I for no apparent purpose in the
Bullshit. The invention of the older Thrain lends historical depth
to the story.
As I've pointed out, as presented in the original version of _The
Hobbit_, for many readers he would probably have actually detracted
from the historical veracity of the book, since it is so easy to
mistake his presence for a typographical error. As Andy Cooke has
recently pointed out, if Tolkien had wanted to create historical depth
this way, he could easily have written "Here of old was Gror King
under the Mountain" (or any other Dwarf name that hadn't been
mentioned elsewhere in the book). Repeating the name "Thrain" without
any explanation was bound to cause confusion, and I for one think
Tolkien would have been clever enough to recognize that.
Post by Michael Martinez
Tolkien referred to the halls of Erebor as ancient, and he clearly
intended the reader to understand that Thorin had a huge family with
multiple halls, Dain of the Iron Hills being only one example of
other lords who maintained residences outside of Erebor.
I agree, all of that is made clear in all editions of the book. But
what does any of this have to do with an earlier Thrain in particular?
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Despite the concern that Tolkien showed about the genealogy in
his revisions of the proofs,
There is no "despite". You simply butchered the facts and
regurgitated them in a form contrived to support the <1T> position.
I carefully reread Christopher's notes in [Treason], and was blown
away by the fact that their actual meaning (as I now understand it)
introduced a serious flaw into <1T> that had not been there
previously. (This new understanding is what I was referring to in my
introduction when I said that I am "not as certain [of <1T>] as I was
before I embarked on the research for this essay.") I included that
revision here at _substantial_ cost to <1T> for the sake of
intellectual honesty. So c'mon, accept what I've handed you on this
silver platter, why don't you? :)
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
3) Points related to the Arkenstone
[Referring to Christopher Tolkien's overview of the Arkenstone issue:]
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
This closely parallels Anderson's comments above, and like Anderson,
Christopher Tolkien unquestionably takes the <1T> perspective. But
the difficulty that Anderson has pointed out certainly affects the
<1T>/<2T> debate.
Douglas Anderson consulted with Christopher Tolkien on some of the
more frequently debated issues regarding THE HOBBIT... There is no
indication in either the book or his first response to me that he
consulted with Christopher Tolkien on this point.
[snip]
Post by Michael Martinez
All that said, much of this <1T> stuff is circular. That is, it is
founded upon Christopher's statement in THE TREASON OF ISENGARD.
Since Christopher said there that there was only one Thrain, people
assume he was correct (despite his careful reservation in conceding
that he had NOT studied the texts of THE HOBBIT), and on the basis
of that assumption repeat the assertion without examining the matter
further.
I have no idea just how old the <1T> notion is, to be honest. [Bib]
mentions several studies of the revisions to _The Hobbit_ dating to
the early and mid-1980s (on p. 32), but I haven't been able to find
copies of them to see what they have to say. And in a sense, those
"several students of the lore of the period" who (if they really
existed) wrote to Tolkien and asked if the map was in error before the
second edition were the first <1T> advocates. :) I very much suspect
that many people would have taken the <1T> position long before
[Treason] was published.

Having said that, I see your point here. I wouldn't call it
"circular", necessarily, but I can see your concern that much of the
current <1T> position may unwittingly have its roots in a single
statement less reliable than some advocates recognize. On the other
hand, I myself certainly _have_ examined the matter further (almost as
far as I am able without consulting the manuscripts and proofs
myself), and I think that <1T> holds up very well. You clearly
disagree, but I hope at least that you'll agree that I'm not blindly
following Christopher Tolkien at this point. (I get to make mistakes
of my very own! :) )
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
(Alternately, it is even possible that recognizing this difficulty was
a factor in convincing him to change the genealogy back to the
original Thorin - Thrain - Thror order: Tolkien may have concluded
that cleaning up every subtle connection like this would make the
reversal a greater challenge than he'd thought.) Once again, the <1T>
position is forced to claim that Tolkien repeatedly overlooked a
mistake, but at least in this case it's a relatively subtle one.
You have so twisted this into a convoluted mishmash that it is not
clear what mistake you are referring to.
Sorry about that... too many suggestions in too little space, I guess.
My final sentence there was a reference back to the <1T> claim in the
previous paragraph (in turn a summary of Anderson):

"when he first wrote the story, Tolkien meant for Thorin's father
Thrain to have found the Arkenstone, and he probably just 'missed
the significance' of Thorin's use of 'my father' in this context
when he invented the earlier Thrain for the second edition."

I'll look for a way to clean this up if I revise the essay, too.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
for <2T>, the difficulty that Anderson outlines is present from
the very first published version of the text (as opposed to the
<1T> case, where this conflict was only introduced when Appendix A
to LotR was written).
There is no difficulty here.
No difficulty as long as one is willing to grant the <2T>
interpretation of the phrase "my father", anyway. But I'm not.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Other than that, I know of no case where Tolkien uses "father" in
this way, though he does use the plural "fathers" (or the related
plural "sires") to refer to remote ancestors on a number of
occasions.
Distinctions between plural and singular forms are insubstantial.
The OED _does_ indicate that the singular form of "father" in this
case tends to have a more specific meaning than the plural form, at
least as I read it:

2. A male ancestor more remote than a parent, esp. the founder of a
race or family, a forefather, progenitor. In pl. ancestors,
forefathers.
Post by Michael Martinez
You have used this as a crutch to shore up your argument, but unless
you can show that Tolkien drew the distinction you draw, it has no
bearing on the issue.
I still believe that when speaking of an ancestor as an ancestor,
Tolkien only used the singular "father" to refer either to a literal
father or to an "ultimate progenitor" like Durin (as described in the
OED's definition 2). Most of the other uses of (singular) "father"
that I've seen in this context seem closer to the OED's definition 4:

4.a. One who exercises protecting care like that of a father; one
who shows paternal kindness; one to whom filial reverence and
obedience are due. (In OE. applied to a feudal superior.)

The quote from [Peoples] stating that "the 'kings' or heads of lines
are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group" certainly fits here
better than definition 2, since any given king would only be an
"ancestor" to a small segment of the whole population. Dain's words
to Thrain after the battle of Azanulbizar, "You are the father of our
Folk", similarly belong here, as Thrain is not an ancestor of Dain.

That's why I was careful to limit my claim only to actual ancestors: I
asked, "Where in Tolkien's writings do we see the word 'father' used
to refer to a remote ancestor in this way?" I still haven't seen any
examples of this from Tolkien's writing that refer to an intermediate
ancestor rather than to an "ultimate progenitor" like Durin.


But although I'd like to stand by my guns on this one (and I'd still
love to see a single example that contradicts my precise assertion), I
think I'll bow to broad public pressure and concede that I'm probably
pushing the singular/plural distinction harder than it can bear.
(Even the OED's definition 2 that I'm so fond of doesn't _absolutely_
require the "founder" aspect.) You won't see any more fighting from
me on this point (and if I do mention it in the future, I'll be sure
to label it as no more than suggestive, if that).


On the other hand, I'm still not willing to give up my claim that an
ancestor called by the more specific phrase "MY father" without
further qualifiers can be anything but the speaker's literal father
(or possibly "immediate father figure": I could imagine it being used
of a stepfather, for example).

I would love to see any example in which Tolkien uses "my father"
(without qualifiers like "of old" that explicitly change its meaning)
to refer to an ancestor more remote than a parent. I don't even think
I've seen an example of this in any published writing, so feel free to
share those as well. As I said in my original essay, if that usage
does exist anywhere, I can only conclude that it's exceedingly rare.


Incidentally, you didn't comment on the final paragraph of this
section where I argued as follows:

"As for <1T>, it should be pointed out that if this non-standard
usage of 'father' were accepted, all of the difficulties raised by
Anderson and Christopher Tolkien would be resolved as well. (There
wouldn't even have been any conflict during the Thrain/Thror
reversal period, as Thorin could have been referring to his
then-grandfather Thrain as 'my father'.) So at worst ('worst' for
<1T>), Thorin's phrase "the Arkenstone of my father" gives no net
evidence in favor of _either_ side in this debate."

Even if we set aside my "non-standard" label entirely for now, any
thoughts on this?

Steuard Jensen
Michael Martinez
2004-06-29 16:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
You have misunderstood the following sentence (which you cited later
...Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror.
The error was extended all the way through the proofs.
Exactly: the error was extended all the way through the proofs, _on_
the proofs.
Okay, let me point out the other part, then: RIGHT THROUGH THE BOOK.

You continue to misunderstand the passage.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
But this lone mention of a King Thrain is very different than those
other historical allusions, because a reader would have to go
through so many deductive steps to recognize it at all.
This is just plain silly. One cannot devise any sort of historical
narrative about anything based on the bits and pieces of "depth"
scattered throughout THE HOBBIT. Even the history of Erebor itself
is told in vague terms. The events are not dated, peoples are not
named, etc.
Oh, certainly, I agree that we shouldn't expect to be told the fine
points of _The Hobbit_'s backstory. My point above was not that the
details of Thrain I's history weren't mapped out, it was that most
readers probably wouldn't even have noticed that he was there.
All you're doing is throwing massive contrivances into the argument.
That weakens your position, since obviously if you have to resort to
flim-flammery it means you don't have any confidence in the facts.
Post by Steuard Jensen
"King Thrain" on the map could very easily be regarded as a simple
error by readers even if <2T> is correct, and nothing in the rest of
the text makes it _obvious_ that it wasn't. (Given that both
Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have reached the conclusion
that the map was originally in error, you've got to admit that must
have been a pretty common "mistake".)
No, I don't have to agree to that at all. This point-of-view has been
largely influenced by Christopher's statement in THE TREASON OF
ISENGARD. People are assuming that Christopher is right to begin with
before checking the facts themselves, and that assumption generally
leads people to miss or misinterpret the facts which clearly
contradict Christopher's statement.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
So Christopher's statement here should not be taken as absolutely
authoritative: he does not know the solution, and has not fully
studied _The Hobbit_'s history. Still, even when writing [Treason]
he was more of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in
these debates (among other things, he was present and often
actively involved throughout the book's development), so his
opinion should carry some weight. As far as I know, he has never
corrected it or otherwise indicated that he has changed his view,
despite a clear opportunity to do so in [Peoples] if he had wished.
That is absolutely wrong.
Which part?
The whole damned thing. Where did you get the idea that "he was more
of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in these debates"?
Who is involved in these debates? Technically, Wayne Hammond,
Christina Scull, and Douglas Anderson have involved themselves by
publishing their research on the source materials. Christopher
self-admittedly did NOT study the source materials. So, how can HE
(at that time) be more knowledgeable than THEY would have been when
they were publishing their books?

Nor, so far as anyone in these discussion groups knows, has
Christopher ever done the research he said he wasn't going to do. So,
his statement was based mostly on ignorance and a cursory examination
of the text. MOSTLY. Christopher possesses both the advantage and
disadvantage of having heard the Hobbit as an oral story (or having it
read to him) by his father when he was a child. His lifelong memories
of that early Hobbit story may or may not have influenced his
judgement.

We are in no position to determine what he remembers. Nor is it right
to assume that his judgement in the matter is better than anyone
else's. He repeatedly pointed out his own mistakes and bad judgement
throughout the writing of THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH. So, your
paragraph is not only wrong, it's just pointlessly wrong.

i.e., you've added more fluff to an already weak analysis of the
texts.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Christopher Tolkien would have had to examine the history of THE
HOBBIT, a project he had left to Taum Santoski and John Rateliff.
Didn't you just quote me as saying something to that effect?
It seems to bear repeating with you.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
You have completely garbled the story. All that happened was the
proofs replicated the name-switch (erroneous in the first
occurrence, apparently intentional in subsequent occurrences), and
Tolkien corrected the proofs throughout to restore the correct order
of Thorin - Thrain - Thror. Tolkien did not mark the proofs to
switch the names and then switch them book.
I haven't talked about this with John Rateliff, Christopher Tolkien,
Douglas Anderson, or anyone else who has seen the proofs, so all I
have to go on is what Christopher wrote, quoted above.
It would help tremendously if you would actually pay attention to what
Christopher wrote. The one-time error was extended RIGHT THROUGH THE
BOOK. That means it was repeated from that point forward in the text.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Furthermore, the discrepancy between map and text indicates that the
Thrain on the map is Thorin's grandfather. Tolkien restored the
text to show Thrain as Thorin's father, and therefore the Thrain on
the map was restored to being some other ancestor.
Hence, the <1T> position is further weakened by the fact of Tolkien's
error correcting. If he had left the name switch in place, the <1T>
position would have been validated (in fact, there probably would
never have been a second Thrain at all).
If you can convince me that I _did_ get the history wrong above, I'll
be overjoyed!
Not nearly as much as I shall be, but I hold little hope that you'll
get the message this time through. You seem dead set on ignoring the
words "right through the book".
Post by Steuard Jensen
...Probably the most serious weakness in <1T> is its need
to assume that Tolkien mistakenly reversed Thror and Thrain on both
submitted versions of Thror's Map ([A&I #85 and #86]), never noticing
his error. If both versions of the map were drawn and submitted
during a period when Tolkien had made that reversal as a conscious
choice, then this isn't a weakness at all.
The most serious weakness in the <1T> argument is its need to make
assumptions at all. The <2T> argument (presently properly, not as by
you) doesn't need to assume anything.
Post by Steuard Jensen
That would still leave unanswered the question of why Tolkien didn't
change the map when he later changed the text, but it's not hard for
<1T> to suggest plausible explanations.
Well, this nonsense just doesn't deserve anything other than a repeat
of the above admonitions: PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT CHRISTOPHER WROTE.
"right through the book".

When you get the textual history right, you'll be in a position to
construct a better analysis (but that is no guarantee you will).
Post by Steuard Jensen
As for <2T>, you say that after the textual changes, "Thrain on the
map was restored to being some other ancestor". I don't think this
would be a "restoration" at all: we both agree that in the original
story before publication, there was indisputably only one Thrain.
Nope. From the time that manuscript went to the publisher, there were
TWO THRAINS. Period.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
1949-50: Tolkien writes draft T 4 of the "Tale of Years" for _The Lord
"2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm of
Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and becomes 'King under the
Mountain'.[33]"
"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged."
At this point in time, Tolkien had not created a genealogy for
Thorin's family for inclusion in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. As estblished
by the first edition of THE HOBBIT, named members of Thorin's family
included Thror, (Thrain the Old), Thrain, Dain, Nain, Thorin's nephews
Fili and Kili, their unnamed mother, and an implied younger brother.
Balin's father Fundin had been named but no connections had been made
between him and Dwalin or between the various members of the Company
and Thorin. Balin is said to be "old-looking" in THE HOBBBIT.
Ok... but I don't see how that's relevant.
You never do, Steuard. It's relevant because it shows that Tolkien
deliberately expanded Thorin's family when he prepared the book for
publication. He added relatives to Thorin's family when he prepared
the book for publication. He brought in new dwarves when he prepared
the book for publication.

Hence, adding a second Thrain to the story was not a big humongous
deal. Nor was it out of the ordinary. Nor was it unusual. Nor was
it contrary to how he handled the new material. Nor was it ever
contradicted by any future edition of THE HOBBIT (nor were any of the
new dwarf names/relationships contradicted in the future).

My point is that Christopher's comment about the genealogy in THE
PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH is being taken out of context. He still, when
he wrote that book, had not gone back to THE HOBBIT and examined all
the changes which had been made to the story when it was prepared for
publication.

Dain wasn't Thorin's cousin in the original, pre-submission story.

Fundin wasn't Balin's father in the original, pre-submission story.

Fili and Kili weren't Thorin's nephews in the original, pre-submission
story.

There was only one Thrain in the original, pre-submission story.

But when Tolkien submitted the book for publication, Thorin had his
cousin Dain, his nephews Fili and Kili, and his distant ancestor
Thrain (the Old).
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> is now faced with a serious difficulty: why did Tolkien write
that Thror founded Erebor if he had deliberately introduced the
earlier King Thrain I?
Tolkien wrote no such thing.
Er, which part of "Thror... founds the realm of Erebor" are you
suggesting that Tolkien didn't write, exactly? My comment there was
almost a direct quote.
Tolkien wrote no such thing IN THE HOBBIT. Your reference wasn't
clear to me. Yes, he wrote that in the first entry for 2590 in "The
Tale of Years".
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
The <2T> position reads Christopher Tolkien's comment that "the
history of Thror's ancestors had not yet emerged" as a reference to
the detailed genealogy and family tree all the way from Moria to
Thorin's generation in "Durin's Folk". In particular, this
position does not believe that Christopher's comment here precludes
a prior emergence of the part of that history involving Thrain I.
As you cited further on, Christopher specifically states that "in [the
first draft of 'Durin's Folk'] and its accompanying genealogical
table...it is seen that an important advance had been made from the
text T 4 of the Tale of Years." (THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, p. 276).
Are you just agreeing with my summary here?
No, just trying to point out the obvious, which clearly is escaping
your notice. The T 4 text is not a major point, but you wag it like a
tree in a storm.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Since Christopher did not investigate the HOBBIT textual history,
his comments in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH do not have any more
bearing on the facts of the first edition HOBBIT than his comment in
THE TREASON OF ISENGARD.
I think it's clear that by the time that he wrote [Peoples],
Christopher had at least studied the history of the development of
"Durin's Folk" and its relationship to revisions to _The Hobbit_ in
considerably more depth than he had when he wrote [Treason].
No, he had not looked at "its relationship to revisions in _The
Hobbit_ in considerably more depth than he had when he wrote
[Treason]". There is no indication in the text that Christopher had
done any such thing. Not one sentence in "The Making of Appendix A"
suggests he looked at THE HOBBIT, much less with respect to this
matter.

And you have no business using ridiculous assumptions like "I think
it's reasonably likely..." as if they are facts which shore up your
other assumptions.

In point of fact, Douglas Anderson didn't do HIS research (for the
revised ANNOTATED HOBBIT) until several years after THE PEOPLES OF
MIDDLE-EARTH was published. I know that much for sure because he
contacted me when he WAS doing his research.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
But it is clear that "Durin's Folk" and the genealogy were developed
AFTER the T 4 text was written.
And indeed, that was made clear in my essay. Under 14 Sep 1950, I
And the significance was still lost on you.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
No. <2T>'s understanding of all this is that Tolkien has finally
organized and expanded the family (and history) which had emerged with
the first edition of THE HOBBIT.
Again, thank you for correcting my wording here.
I was correcting one of your egregious errors of fact, not simply your
"wording". J.R.R. Tolkien began extending Thorin's family in 1936,
while preparing THE HOBBIT for publication. He did not wait until
1950 to do so. He extended the family even more in 1950 (after
reading the proofs for the second edition of THE HOBBIT).
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
No, Christopher's comment is about the PREFATORY NOTE being the
"starting-point" (in Christopher's estimation -- he carefully says
"the extension of the line beyond Thror APPEARS [emphasis mine] to
have had its starting point in my father's explanation of the words on
Thror's map in _THE HOBBIT_").
Ah, ok. I mistakenly guessed that your take on this would be to opt
for a broader reading of Christopher's statement;
There is no need to guess, assume, or reword, or rewrite in this
matter.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
In the final text, Tolkien only introduced one brief rewrite
(Thorin's account of the history of Erebor), which was not very
substantial. He extensively modified the proofs for THE LORD OF THE
RINGS, occasionally requiring significant retypesetting despite his
best efforts to keep the changes small, so he wasn't afraid to make
changes on proofs.
On the other hand, his letter to Allen & Unwin of 23 Jun 1965 leading
up to the third edition _explicitly_ states that the planned full
re-setting of the book was what convinced him that the time had come
to make those changes in the text.
Now you're assuming that he wanted to make those changes in 1950, but
chose not to. In Letter 128, written on 1 August 1950, he wrote: "THE
HOBBIT: I return the proofs herewith. They did not require much
correction, but did need some consideration." Doesn't sound like he
was very concerned about the text in 1950. His feelings about six
passages 16 years later (when dozens of passages were altered) have no
bearing on this matter.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
24 Aug 1965: Tolkien submits his changes for the third edition of _The
Hobbit_ [Bib]. Most of the relevant changes relate to the
history of Erebor in Thror's time as related in chapter 1, and
"and came with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
[became]
"and came back with all their wealth and their tools to this
Mountain"
Hardly.
Hardly what? "Hardly read as follows"? I'll admit that I snipped
things down to focus on some essential features, but I didn't see that
as much of a distortion.
You butchered the textual change, misrepresenting it completely. You
didn't leave out "potential changes", you left out ACTUAL CHANGES.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Long ago in my grandfather's time some dwarves were driven out of
the far North, and came with all their wealth and their tools to
this Mountain on the map. There they mined and and they tunnelled
and they made huge halls and great workshops....
Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out
of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and their
tools to this Mountain on the map. It had been discovered by my
far ancestor, Thrain the Old, but now they mined and they
tunnelled and they made huger halls and greater workshops....
In the original conception, Thror's family was NOT driven out of the
north. In the new conception ("Durin's Folk") they WERE driven out of
the north. The second edition of THE HOBBIT doesn't explain this
point, and so Tolkien changed it in 1965 to agree with the LoTR text.
Huh? In the original version, Thror wasn't mentioned by name, but
it's quite a stretch to claim that means he _wasn't_ driven out of the
north.
It's quite a stretch to clain that he WAS driven out of the north.
There is no indication in the original text that he was.
Post by Steuard Jensen
(In particular, the phrasing here would be very odd if Thorin's
grandfather had already been king when the other Dwarves arrived: his
kingship is linked directly with the newfound wealth of the Dwarves
from the north.)
The newfound wealth was linked to the period of his kingship. Nothing
more.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> on the other hand would probably describe these changes
As I have repeatedly stated through the years, you are by no means
fit to state my positions for me, as you continually bungle the job.
See above regarding the chief significance of the textual change.
Excellent. As I have repeatedly stated through the years, when I tell
you my understanding of your positions (often after a citation of your
actual words, or a reference to them like I gave at the beginning of
the essay), you get the opportunity to point out where I have failed
to understand your meaning.
Rather than mis-state my positions so that I have to correct you, why
don't you just quote me?

Does it break your fingers to leave what I say in your citations?
Post by Steuard Jensen
In the case of an essay like this, I _have_ to explain what your
position is if I want to be balanced at all,
Then get it right. Start by quoting me. Then take the time to
compare your words to mine. If your words are in any way different
from mine, CUT OUT YOUR WORDS AND LEAVE MINE IN.

You consistently screw up everything I say and then claim you didn't
realize you were doing anything wrong.

So, quit explaining what I write. It's obviously a task beyond your
skill to do it correctly.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<1T> starts out at a disadvantage: it requires us to believe that
Tolkien made a significant error by using the name Thrain on the
map, and furthermore that after he became aware of that error, he
eventually gave up on fixing it and let it remain unexplained until
the note introduced for the second edition. But that is its only
difficulty, at least based on the aspects of textual history
discussed above.
Hardly, since the naming of the Arkenstone was never altered in the
original HOBBIT edition typescript and proofs. That is, while
Tolkien was repeating the "Thorin - Thror - Thrain" error in the
story, he maintained "Arkenstone of Thrain" without altering it to
"Arkenstone of Thror".
That's why I specified "at least based on the aspects of textual
history discussed above".
The "Hardly, since...." is in reply to your absurd conclusion "but
that is [<1T>'s] only difficulty", which is pure bullshit.

The chief deficit in the <1T> argument was, up until you wrote this
nightmare analysis, Conrad's fumbling attempts to extrapolate the
facts. But I have to admit that, after reading your essay, he has
found a match in you.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> does not require us to assume that Tolkien made a serious
error on the map, but it does require us to believe that he
invented the character of Thrain I for no apparent purpose in the
Bullshit. The invention of the older Thrain lends historical depth
to the story.
As I've pointed out, as presented in the original version of _The
Hobbit_, for many readers he would probably have actually detracted
from the historical veracity of the book
Absolute nonsense.

And this is yet another example of how you are presenting your view as
if it is some indisputable fact. What you think many readers would or
would not have done has no bearing on the issue of how many Thrains
Tolkien put into his story in 1936.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Tolkien referred to the halls of Erebor as ancient, and he clearly
intended the reader to understand that Thorin had a huge family with
multiple halls, Dain of the Iron Hills being only one example of
other lords who maintained residences outside of Erebor.
I agree, all of that is made clear in all editions of the book. But
what does any of this have to do with an earlier Thrain in particular?
Because Thror's halls wouldn't have been "ancient" if he had been the
only King under the Mountain.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Despite the concern that Tolkien showed about the genealogy in
his revisions of the proofs,
There is no "despite". You simply butchered the facts and
regurgitated them in a form contrived to support the <1T> position.
I carefully reread Christopher's notes in [Treason],
No, you screwed up the whole passage and threw in some ridiculous
assumptions just to make sure it came out as totally butchered as you
could possibly contrive to make it.

Your statements contradict the published facts of record.

You have predicated your argument largely on a fallacious reading of
Christopher's comments, wherein he stipulates that the Thror-Thrain
mixup was extended RIGHT THROUGH THE BOOK (and was not confined to a
single passage, as you ridiculously contend).
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
All that said, much of this <1T> stuff is circular. That is, it is
founded upon Christopher's statement in THE TREASON OF ISENGARD.
Since Christopher said there that there was only one Thrain, people
assume he was correct (despite his careful reservation in conceding
that he had NOT studied the texts of THE HOBBIT), and on the basis
of that assumption repeat the assertion without examining the matter
further.
I have no idea just how old the <1T> notion is, to be honest. [Bib]
mentions several studies of the revisions to _The Hobbit_ dating to
the early and mid-1980s (on p. 32), but I haven't been able to find
copies of them to see what they have to say.
The first edition of THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT would be one such study. It
was, in fact, considered the most exhaustive resource at the time for
the subject.
Post by Steuard Jensen
... And in a sense, those "several students of the lore of the period"
who (if they really existed) wrote to Tolkien and asked if the map was
in error before the second edition were the first <1T> advocates. :)
I very much suspect that many people would have taken the <1T> position
long before [Treason] was published.
Well, you've just gone and proved the whole danged argument with THAT
sound conclusion! Silly me, for paying attention to what was in the
original text. I should have just consulted your feelings on the
matter, Luke. The Force is clearly with you on this one.

Yes, I agree you have examined the matter in greater detail than some
others before you have. But you need to get the facts straight before
you go any farther.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
for <2T>, the difficulty that Anderson outlines is present from
the very first published version of the text (as opposed to the
<1T> case, where this conflict was only introduced when Appendix A
to LotR was written).
There is no difficulty here.
No difficulty as long as one is willing to grant the <2T>
interpretation of the phrase "my father", anyway. But I'm not.
One does not NEED to interpret the phrase "my father". It is YOU (and
perhaps those who agree with your contention in this point) who insist
on "interpretation" -- that is, you claim (wrongly) that it can only
refer to Thorin's direct, immediate predecessor.

The reference is ambiguous and you have been shown more than once WHY
it is ambiguous.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Other than that, I know of no case where Tolkien uses "father" in
this way, though he does use the plural "fathers" (or the related
plural "sires") to refer to remote ancestors on a number of
occasions.
Distinctions between plural and singular forms are insubstantial.
The OED _does_ indicate that the singular form of "father" in this
case tends to have a more specific meaning than the plural form, at
Unless you intend to cite the entire OED entry for "father", and show
how it relates to Tolkien's use of the word (and that section was
originally written years before Tolkien got involved with the project
-- he worked on a much later section), your partial citation has no
relevance or significance.

Anyone can pick and choose among dictionary entries.
Post by Steuard Jensen
I would love to see any example in which Tolkien uses "my father"
(without qualifiers like "of old" that explicitly change its meaning)
to refer to an ancestor more remote than a parent. I don't even think
I've seen an example of this in any published writing, so feel free to
share those as well. As I said in my original essay, if that usage
does exist anywhere, I can only conclude that it's exceedingly rare.
Well, since you keep ruling out the most obvious examples, it's no
wonder other such examples become "exceedingly rare". Tolkien's
characters don't often refer to their remote ancestors in the
singular. Aragorn uses the word "father" when addressing Saruman at
the edge of Fangorn Forest. Are we to assume that Aragorn thought
Saruman was Arathorn II?

You have laid excessive, unjustified restrictions upon Tolkien's use
of the word "father" and its relatives.

That is, your argument is an argument of convenience. Since it would
be INconvenient for you to have to concede that Thorin could be
referring to anyone other than his immediate predecessor when he says
"that stone was my father's", you conveniently insist that some
corrobative use of "my father" be offered as proof that Tolkien was
using "my father" that way.

You might as well demand that we prove Saruman WASN'T Aragorn's
father, because Aragorn clearly says, "Well, father, what can we do
for you."

And, no, you CANNOT reply with, "But we know that Saruman wasn't
Aragorn's father". By your unreasonable logic, we know no such thing.
After all, that is only an INTERPRETATION.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Incidentally, you didn't comment on the final paragraph of this
Because your argument failed so early on, I was being kind in pointing
out other egregious errors of fact.

Get your ducks in a row before you start immortalizing your essay on
the Web.
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-29 21:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
You have misunderstood the following sentence (which you cited
...Taum Santoski and John Rateliff have minutely examined the
proofs and shown conclusively that instead of correcting this
one error my father decided to extend Thorin - Thror - Thrain
right through the book; but that having done so he then changed
all the occurrences back to Thorin - Thrain - Thror.
The error was extended all the way through the proofs.
Exactly: the error was extended all the way through the proofs, _on_
the proofs.
Okay, let me point out the other part, then: RIGHT THROUGH THE BOOK.
Sure... but I've never disputed that. In fact, I think I said as much
when I summarized the meaning of this quotation in my essay:

Again, to clarify what this says as compared to what both sides of
this discussion have asserted in the past, the proofs had the
reversed genealogy in just one place. Tolkien went through them
from front to back and reversed it everywhere on the proofs, and
then went back through and restored the original (and final) order.

So yes, he went through and reversed the genealogy "RIGHT THROUGH THE
BOOK": throughout the proofs (which were the most recent version of
"the book" at the time). That's what I said. (You seem to be
equating "the book" with "the typescript" in Christopher's comments,
rather than with "the proofs". Why?)
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Oh, certainly, I agree that we shouldn't expect to be told the fine
points of _The Hobbit_'s backstory. My point above was not that the
details of Thrain I's history weren't mapped out, it was that most
readers probably wouldn't even have noticed that he was there.
All you're doing is throwing massive contrivances into the argument.
This entire debate is about Tolkien's motives, about what was going on
in his head when he wrote the book. We all agree on what was
published when, and we're just arguing about what Tolkien meant by it.
So I think that my questions about Tolkien's purpose in introducing
Thrain I (according to <2T>) are quite relevant. If introducing the
character would likely do more harm than good (I realize that's an
"if") and Tolkien were likely to have recognized that (also an "if"),
then shouldn't we conclude that Tolkien would not have intentionally
done so? Supporting those "ifs" is one of the crucial points in my
argument, of course, but I don't think this approach is "contrived".
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
"King Thrain" on the map could very easily be regarded as a simple
error by readers even if <2T> is correct, and nothing in the rest
of the text makes it _obvious_ that it wasn't. (Given that both
Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have reached the
conclusion that the map was originally in error, you've got to
admit that must have been a pretty common "mistake".)
No, I don't have to agree to that at all. This point-of-view has
been largely influenced by Christopher's statement in THE TREASON OF
ISENGARD. People are assuming that Christopher is right to begin
with before checking the facts themselves...
If two people who know this story better than 99.9% of the people on
the planet can reach the conclusion that "King Thrain" was originally
an error (whether they talked to each other about it or not!), I'm
pretty sure that the average reader has at least a decent chance of
reaching that conclusion as well.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
So Christopher's statement here should not be taken as absolutely
authoritative: he does not know the solution, and has not fully
studied _The Hobbit_'s history. Still, even when writing [Treason]
he was more of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in
these debates (among other things, he was present and often
actively involved throughout the book's development), so his
opinion should carry some weight. As far as I know, he has never
corrected it or otherwise indicated that he has changed his view,
despite a clear opportunity to do so in [Peoples] if he had wished.
That is absolutely wrong.
Which part?
The whole damned thing. Where did you get the idea that "he was
more of an expert on these matters than anyone involved in these
debates"?
Perhaps I wasn't clear: I meant "in our debates about <1T>/<2T> here
on the newsgroups", the ones that I'd talked about as background for
the essay in its introduction. I'm not more of an expert on the
history of _The Hobbit_ than Christopher Tolkien is. Nor is Conrad.
Nor are you. The only person whom I'm aware of ever posting to the
newsgroups who might be is Wayne Hammond, and it doesn't look like
he's ever talked about Thrain here. Even if Christopher Tolkien
hasn't studied that history in full depth, neither have we. He
_lived_ it. And we only know some parts of that history based on
_his_ comments (the whole name reversal period, for example).
Post by Michael Martinez
We are in no position to determine what he remembers. Nor is it right
to assume that his judgement in the matter is better than anyone
else's. He repeatedly pointed out his own mistakes and bad judgement
throughout the writing of THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH. So, your
paragraph is not only wrong, it's just pointlessly wrong.
I don't assume his judgement is better than anyone else's, but I don't
assume it's worse, either. He's had access to information that we
haven't, and he's clearly spent time discussing these issues with
those like Santoski and Rateliff who _have_ studied the books' history
in depth. So no, I don't think it's going overboard to say that "his
opinion should carry some weight".
Post by Michael Martinez
Nope. From the time that manuscript went to the publisher, there
were TWO THRAINS. Period.
I agree that this is true of the <2T> position under the revised
history of the Thror/Thrain reversal that I've asserted, but you seem
to disagree with that position. So explain to me, if the submitted
manuscript had Thorin - Thror - Thrain throughout (so that the King
Thrain on the map could have been Thorin's grandfather), what evidence
there was at that point for an earlier Thrain? Just the word
"heirloom"? Or what?
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged."
At this point in time, Tolkien had not created a genealogy for
Thorin's family for inclusion in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. As
estblished by the first edition of THE HOBBIT, named members of
Thorin's family included [snip long list]
Ok... but I don't see how that's relevant.
You never do, Steuard.
Do you really want to be the one that started with the personal jabs?
Post by Michael Martinez
It's relevant because it shows that Tolkien deliberately expanded
Thorin's family when he prepared the book for publication.
Hence, adding a second Thrain to the story was not a big humongous
deal.
I totally agree with you here. In fact, I'd go so far as to claim
that it didn't add much to the story at all... but that the repeated
name (never explained in the first edition) could confuse some
readers, which would certainly detract from it. Why would Tolkien do
that? Did it somehow not occur to him that repeating the name could
confuse people?
Post by Michael Martinez
My point is that Christopher's comment about the genealogy in THE
PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH is being taken out of context. He still,
when he wrote that book, had not gone back to THE HOBBIT and
examined all the changes which had been made to the story when it
was prepared for publication.
So, in short, you're simply saying that he was wrong at this point in
[Peoples]. Fine. I disagree, but that's what we're trying to argue
here.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> is now faced with a serious difficulty: why did
Tolkien write that Thror founded Erebor if he had
deliberately introduced the earlier King Thrain I?
Tolkien wrote no such thing.
Er, which part of "Thror... founds the realm of Erebor" are you
suggesting that Tolkien didn't write, exactly?
Tolkien wrote no such thing IN THE HOBBIT. Your reference wasn't
clear to me.
The fact that it was written under my entry for "1949-50" wasn't a
clue? The fact that the quote from [Peoples] immediately preceded
that sentence (just five lines up) wasn't a clue? I'd generally offer
to rewrite the section to clarify it in a case like this (as I did
several points in my last reply), but I can't see any way of making
this one clearer.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
As you cited further on, Christopher specifically states that "in [the
first draft of 'Durin's Folk'] and its accompanying genealogical
table...it is seen that an important advance had been made from the
text T 4 of the Tale of Years." (THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, p. 276).
Are you just agreeing with my summary here?
No, just trying to point out the obvious, which clearly is escaping
your notice. The T 4 text is not a major point, but you wag it like
a tree in a storm.
How is it not a major point? It shows Tolkien himself entering
essentially the <1T> version of the Dwarves' history into an early
draft of the Tale of Years. Tolkien apparently taking my position
"is not a major point"?
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
In the final text, Tolkien only introduced one brief rewrite
(Thorin's account of the history of Erebor), which was not very
substantial. He extensively modified the proofs for THE LORD OF THE
RINGS, occasionally requiring significant retypesetting despite his
best efforts to keep the changes small, so he wasn't afraid to make
changes on proofs.
On the other hand, his letter to Allen & Unwin of 23 Jun 1965 leading
up to the third edition _explicitly_ states that the planned full
re-setting of the book was what convinced him that the time had come
to make those changes in the text.
Now you're assuming that he wanted to make those changes in 1950, but
chose not to.
Not "assuming", merely "suggesting". The suggestion in question was
in a parenthetical note in my essay, and introduced with the tentative
words that it "may also have been due to" this motive. My primary
argument was that he was simply focused on LotR at the time, not on
revising _The Hobbit_.
Post by Michael Martinez
In Letter 128, written on 1 August 1950, he wrote: "THE HOBBIT: I
return the proofs herewith. They did not require much correction,
but did need some consideration." Doesn't sound like he was very
concerned about the text in 1950.
True. Of course, he didn't submit the author's note including its
comments on Thrain for a month and a half after that, so there was
time for him to have noticed the difficulty in the meantime. After
all, when he first saw (and corrected) the proofs, he was rather
overwhelmed by the adoption of his changes to chapter 5, as Letter
#128 shows.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
24 Aug 1965: Tolkien submits his changes for the third edition
of _The Hobbit_ [Bib]. Most of the relevant changes relate to
the history of Erebor in Thror's time as related in chapter 1,
Hardly.
Hardly what? "Hardly read as follows"? I'll admit that I snipped
things down to focus on some essential features, but I didn't see
that as much of a distortion.
You butchered the textual change, misrepresenting it completely. You
didn't leave out "potential changes", you left out ACTUAL CHANGES.
By "potential changes to the history relating to Thror" (words snipped
from my previoius reply), I simply meant that the addition of Thror's
name and family to the story didn't necessarily involve a change to
the history that Tolkien intended. But I now see that all the
alterations could be important; I'll include them all in a revision,
if I make one. (In my defense, I _did_ at least mention that Thror's
name was added at several points in the new edition. But I'll readily
admit that I didn't recognize its impact on the possible readings of
the history presented.)
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Long ago in my grandfather's time some dwarves were driven out of
the far North, and came with all their wealth and their tools to
this Mountain...
Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out
of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and their
tools to this Mountain...
In the original conception, Thror's family was NOT driven out of
the north. In the new conception ("Durin's Folk") they WERE
driven out of the north.
Huh? In the original version, Thror wasn't mentioned by name, but
it's quite a stretch to claim that means he _wasn't_ driven out of
the north.
It's quite a stretch to clain that he WAS driven out of the north.
There is no indication in the original text that he was.
Both readings are certainly consistent with the original text, and I
should probably have said something to that effect in my essay. But
you didn't say that, you said that "Thror's family was NOT driven out
of the north" in the original conception. You didn't say that was
just one possibility, or even that it was the most likely possibility,
you said it was flat out true. So I'm very eager to know what your
evidence is.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
(In particular, the phrasing here would be very odd if Thorin's
his kingship is linked directly with the newfound wealth of the
Dwarves from the north.)
The newfound wealth was linked to the period of his kingship. Nothing
more.
So the claim is that he wasn't king before the new Dwarves showed up,
he just happened to live there? Why would these new Dwarves have made
him their king, anyway?
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> on the other hand would probably describe these changes
As I have repeatedly stated through the years, you are by no means
fit to state my positions for me, as you continually bungle the job.
Excellent. As I have repeatedly stated through the years, when I
tell you my understanding of your positions (often after a
citation of your actual words, or a reference to them like I gave
at the beginning of the essay), you get the opportunity to point
out where I have failed to understand your meaning.
Rather than mis-state my positions so that I have to correct you,
why don't you just quote me?
As I said, "This is a well-accepted technique for reducing
miscommunication in discussions." (My mother is a neutral
facilitator, so I was raised with way more of this stuff than I care
to remember. :) ) You explain your point. Then I repeat it back to
you in my own words so that you can tell whether I've understood you
or not. (Just parroting your words back at you could never establish
that!) You correct me, then I try again, until I've gotten it right.
At that point, even if we still disagree, at least we're both
confident that I understand what we disagree on.

So once again, it's not an attempt to warp your words or to construct
a straw-man argument. It's an attempt to give you the opportunity to
tell me what I've misunderstood about your position. And just quoting
you directly could never accomplish that.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
<1T> starts out at a disadvantage: it requires us to
believe that Tolkien made a significant error... But that
is its only difficulty, at least based on the aspects of
textual history discussed above.
Hardly, since the naming of the Arkenstone was never altered in
the original HOBBIT edition typescript and proofs.
That's why I specified "at least based on the aspects of textual
history discussed above".
The "Hardly, since...." is in reply to your absurd conclusion "but
that is [<1T>'s] only difficulty", which is pure bullshit.
As is still quoted above, that conclusion was stated to apply only to
the aspects of textual history discussed so far. I'd made it clear
that aspects of the history related to the Arkenstone would be
discussed later, in any case. If you think that my statement here is
"bullshit", fine, but give a valid reason. The only reason you gave
was explicitly one that my conclusion had excluded.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Bullshit. The invention of the older Thrain lends historical
depth to the story.
As I've pointed out, as presented in the original version of _The
Hobbit_, for many readers he would probably have actually
detracted from the historical veracity of the book
And this is yet another example of how you are presenting your view as
if it is some indisputable fact. What you think many readers would or
would not have done has no bearing on the issue of how many Thrains
Tolkien put into his story in 1936.
Most people don't use the word "probably" when stating an absolute
fact. I certainly don't. But I stand by that "probably", and I have
more respect for Tolkien's instincts as a storyteller to think that he
would have deliberately caused the confusion that the unexplained
repetition of "Thrain"s was likely to cause.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Tolkien referred to the halls of Erebor as ancient, and he
clearly intended the reader to understand that Thorin had a huge
family with multiple halls...
I agree, all of that is made clear in all editions of the book. But
what does any of this have to do with an earlier Thrain in particular?
Because Thror's halls wouldn't have been "ancient" if he had been the
only King under the Mountain.
They would have been about 350 years old at the time of the story.
That sounds pretty old to me. Would I call it "ancient"? Maybe,
maybe not. But I don't think there are strict rules about that sort
of thing. This could be suggestive of an older history, or it could
just be a reflection of the tone of the story.
Post by Michael Martinez
You have predicated your argument largely on a fallacious reading of
Christopher's comments, wherein he stipulates that the Thror-Thrain
mixup was extended RIGHT THROUGH THE BOOK (and was not confined to a
single passage, as you ridiculously contend).
Not once have I contended that Tolkien's Thror/Thrain reversal was
never extended "right through the book". I have simply asserted a
correction to the point in the book's history when that extension took
place. I believe that correction is in closer agreement with
Christopher Tolkien's description of the history involved.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
All that said, much of this <1T> stuff is circular. That is, it is
founded upon Christopher's statement in THE TREASON OF ISENGARD.
I have no idea just how old the <1T> notion is, to be honest.
[Bib] mentions several studies of the revisions to _The Hobbit_
dating to the early and mid-1980s (on p. 32), but I haven't been
able to find copies of them to see what they have to say.
The first edition of THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT would be one such study.
It was, in fact, considered the most exhaustive resource at the time
for the subject.
Oh, certainly. But it doesn't say anything about <1T>/<2T>, as far as
I have found. That's why I mentioned those other earlier studies as
interesting places to look.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
... And in a sense, those "several students of the lore of the period"
who (if they really existed) wrote to Tolkien and asked if the map was
in error before the second edition were the first <1T> advocates. :)
I very much suspect that many people would have taken the <1T> position
long before [Treason] was published.
Well, you've just gone and proved the whole danged argument with
THAT sound conclusion!
Wait, what? I thought we were talking about whether or not the <1T>
idea predated Christopher Tolkien's statement of it in [Treason], not
about the "whole danged argument". I cited an example of
pre-[Treason] people who seem to have believed <1T>. I said (partly
based on that) that I thought it was likely that there were many
people of the sort. How is that unsound?
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
As for the <2T> position, it is also faced with a challenge
here: for <2T>, the difficulty that Anderson outlines is
present from the very first published version of the text
There is no difficulty here.
No difficulty as long as one is willing to grant the <2T>
interpretation of the phrase "my father", anyway. But I'm not.
One does not NEED to interpret the phrase "my father".
I'm not sure what you mean by "interpret" here. To me, any time you
hear or read a phrase you have to "interpret" its meaning. That's
what listening (or reading) _is_. And that's doubly true when the
word has more than one definition: you have to "interpret" which
definition is intended. Sometimes that's obvious, sometimes it's less
so, but it's certainly part of both oral and written communication.

So yes, one does need to "interpret" the phrase "my father".
Otherwise, it's just a meaningless collection of lines scratched on a
page. And as the OED (for example) lists 10 definitions for "father",
some effort of "interpretation" to figure out which one is intended is
required.
Post by Michael Martinez
It is YOU (and perhaps those who agree with your contention in this
point) who insist on "interpretation" -- that is, you claim
(wrongly) that it can only refer to Thorin's direct, immediate
predecessor.
I still don't understand what you mean by "interpretation" here. You
make it sound like it's a bad thing, or possible to avoid.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
I would love to see any example in which Tolkien uses "my father"
(without qualifiers like "of old" that explicitly change its
meaning) to refer to an ancestor more remote than a parent. I
don't even think I've seen an example of this in any published
writing, so feel free to share those as well. As I said in my
original essay, if that usage does exist anywhere, I can only
conclude that it's exceedingly rare.
Well, since you keep ruling out the most obvious examples, it's no
wonder other such examples become "exceedingly rare".
None of the examples I've seen cited seem to fit as parallels to
Thorin's usage in the passages in question. The phrase "my father" is
awfully specific.
Post by Michael Martinez
Tolkien's characters don't often refer to their remote ancestors in
the singular. Aragorn uses the word "father" when addressing
Saruman at the edge of Fangorn Forest. Are we to assume that
Aragorn thought Saruman was Arathorn II?
Did he call him "my father"? No. That "my" is what most firmly
convinces me that Thorin is talking about his literal father.
Post by Michael Martinez
That is, your argument is an argument of convenience. Since it
would be INconvenient for you to have to concede that Thorin could
be referring to anyone other than his immediate predecessor when he
says "that stone was my father's", you conveniently insist that some
corrobative use of "my father" be offered as proof that Tolkien was
using "my father" that way.
And yet, as I outlined in that final paragraph of this section of my
essay that you still haven't responded to, <1T> doesn't actually lose
anything if your broad understanding of "my father" is correct. In
fact, most of its remaining difficulties disappear in that case. But
the broader meaning of "my father" is absolutely required for <2T>, or
at least it seems to be based on your argument. Even if that meaning
is the right one, that's not an argument _favoring_ <2T> over <1T>, it
just means you get to stay in the game.

I'll admit that my take on the phrase "my father" would (if true) be a
serious blow to <2T>. But it's not such a crucial link in the chain
that I'd stoop to outright deception to establish it.
Post by Michael Martinez
You might as well demand that we prove Saruman WASN'T Aragorn's
father, because Aragorn clearly says, "Well, father, what can we do
for you."
I've seen plenty of examples in literature of "father" being used as a
term of respect for an old man. I haven't seen any examples of "my
father" being used that way.
Post by Michael Martinez
Post by Steuard Jensen
Incidentally, you didn't comment on the final paragraph of this
Because your argument failed so early on, I was being kind in pointing
out other egregious errors of fact.
Are you saying that my argument in the paragraph failed early on, or
that my argument in the essay did. Because if you mean the former,
I'd love to hear where.
Steuard Jensen
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-29 22:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
So the claim is that he wasn't king before the new Dwarves showed up,
he just happened to live there? Why would these new Dwarves have
made him their king, anyway?
Well, he WAS the heir of Durin... anywhere he went he'd be king pretty much
by default. Which just tends to make the 'he was not with the other
Dwarves' explanation all the more strained.
Matthew Woodcraft
2004-06-28 20:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
Where in Tolkien's writings do we see the word "father" used to refer
to a remote ancestor in this way? To the best of me knowledge, there
is only one example, found in the chapter "A Short Rest" of _The
Oh, there are lots of examples.

Durin is described as the "father of that kindred most friendly to the
Elves" from /Of the Naugrim and the Edain/, also in the published
Silmarillion.

There is "Beor the Old, Father of Men" in the /Annals of Beleriand/,
though "Father of Men" is kind of a set phrase with a special meaning.

We also have "Glaurung father of dragons" and "Felarof, father of horses".

More interestingly, Dain calls his cousin Thrain the "father of our
Folk" in Appendix A.


Compare also "Hurin Hadorion" in the /Wanderings of Hurin/, where Hurin
is not literally Hador's son.


-M-
Bruce Tucker
2004-06-29 00:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
Post by Steuard Jensen
Where in Tolkien's writings do we see the word "father" used to refer
to a remote ancestor in this way? To the best of me knowledge, there
is only one example, found in the chapter "A Short Rest" of _The
Oh, there are lots of examples.
Durin is described as the "father of that kindred most friendly to the
Elves" from /Of the Naugrim and the Edain/, also in the published
Silmarillion.
There is "Beor the Old, Father of Men" in the /Annals of Beleriand/,
though "Father of Men" is kind of a set phrase with a special meaning.
We also have "Glaurung father of dragons" and "Felarof, father of horses".
More interestingly, Dain calls his cousin Thrain the "father of our
Folk" in Appendix A.
True, but Steuard later correctly goes on to extend this to the
construction "my father", which is never so used. And while Tolkien
obviously uses "father" or "fathers" to mean ancestor or ancestors in
certain instances, it is never, as far as I can recall, when speaking of
the relation of one individual to another, but only when speaking of the
relation of an ancestor to a general group of descendants - Aragorn
never describes himself as "Isildur's son" rather than "Isildur's heir",
or to any specific one of his ancestors as "my father" (as opposed to
"my fathers of old", a different phrase); no individual Dwarf ever
refers to Durin as "*my* father" as opposed to the father of the
speaker's people.
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
Compare also "Hurin Hadorion" in the /Wanderings of Hurin/, where Hurin
is not literally Hador's son.
That does appear to be a use like the one I am contemplating, but it is
not in the English language, which is the language under discussion. I
don't think usages in other languages have much application as examples,
as they may follow different conventions; few people named "O'Neill",
for example, literally have a father named Neill.

I have no side to take on the Thrains business - but the "father" thing
bugs me. I certainly don't think Tolkien ever conceived that anyone
would ever think he meant for "Thorin... son of Thrain" actually to mean
Thrain's grandson or distant descendant. I think Steuard is also correct
to point out that both the 1 Thrain and 2 Thrains camps have problems in
this department - it would be exceedingly odd for someone, especially
someone as history-minded as a Dwarf, to refer to something his father
found as an "heirloom of my house", but on the other hand if it was
something passed down from father to son for many generations he would
almost certainly say "of my *fathers*" rather than "my father" - and
definitely say "my fathers'" rather than "my father's". I think better
evidence has to come somewhere else, and I'll leave that to those with a
much better knowledge of the textual history.
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration @ mindspring.com
Matthew Woodcraft
2004-06-29 17:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Tucker
[Various examples of 'father' being used non-literally]
I have no side to take on the Thrains business - but the "father" thing
bugs me. I certainly don't think Tolkien ever conceived that anyone
would ever think he meant for "Thorin... son of Thrain" actually to mean
Thrain's grandson or distant descendant.
For the avoidance of doubt, I agree with the above in all respects.

-M-
Michael Martinez
2004-06-29 23:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Tucker
That does appear to be a use like the one I am contemplating, but it is
not in the English language, which is the language under discussion. I
don't think usages in other languages have much application as examples,
as they may follow different conventions; few people named "O'Neill",
for example, literally have a father named Neill.
I will agree that the use of Elvish names won't shed any light on this
discussion. Tolkien appears to have developed idiomatic rules for the
creation of his Elvish names which don't necessarily apply to the
English-narrative naming conventions.
Post by Bruce Tucker
I have no side to take on the Thrains business - but the "father" thing
bugs me. I certainly don't think Tolkien ever conceived that anyone
would ever think he meant for "Thorin... son of Thrain" actually to mean
Thrain's grandson or distant descendant...
Thorin son of Thrain would not imply a grandson or distant descendant.
But "my father Thrain" or "our father Thrain" could imply either a
direct, biological father; a remote ancestor; or the leader of a
people in Tolkien's various uses of the words "father", "sire", etc.
Post by Bruce Tucker
...I think Steuard is also correct to point out that both the 1 Thrain
and 2 Thrains camps have problems in this department - it would be
exceedingly odd for someone, especially someone as history-minded as
a Dwarf, to refer to something his father found as an "heirloom of my
house", but on the other hand if it was something passed down from
father to son for many generations he would almost certainly say
"of my *fathers*" rather than "my father" - and definitely say
"my fathers'" rather than "my father's".
[snip]

There is no textual basis for concluding that Thorin should have said
"of my fathers" instead of "of my father".

The passage is ambiguous. At least, Tolkien appears to have felt so,
because he never changed it. That is part of the argument.

When Tolkien changed Thorin's exposition concerning the history of
Erebor, he didn't change anything else. All other references to
Thrain remained as they had been in the first edition.

So, the Arkenstone of Thrain, said in THE LORD OF THE RINGS to have
been discovered by and named for Thrain I (called Thrain the Old by
Douglas Anderson in his commentary), is still referred to by Thorin as
it was originally: "That stone was my father's".

What, did Thrain II inherit the stone while Thror was still alive?

Tolkien had three opportunities to change the text. For reasons he
did not disclose, he elected not to do it.


For the record, Douglas Anderson has replied to me again. I doubt I
shall convince him of anything in this matter, so I think it is safe
to concede that his is an authoritative voice which remains in the
<1T> camp.

He did provide me with some interesting citations that have got me to
thinking.

While I am sure some people will gleefully seize upon these citations
and abuse them mercilessly, I think it only fair to all who continue
following this discussion that I point them out. There may be other
citations I haven't had time to look at which could point toward a
third point-of-view (which would, I think, help resolve all the
brouhaha over the map in a very unexpected way).

From "A Warm Welcome", THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, 2nd Edition, p. 246)
But men remembered little of all that, though some still sang
old songs of the dwarf-kings of the Mountain, Thror and
Thrain of the race of Durin, and of the coming of the
Dragon, and the fall of the lords of Dale. Some sang too
that Thror and Thrain would come back one day and gold
would flow in rivers, through the mountain-gates, and
all that land would be filled with new song and laughter.
But this pleasant legend did not much affect their
daily business.

From "Queer Lodgings", Ibid., p. 169)
'I don't need your service, thank you,' said Beorn,
'but I expect you need mine. I am not over fond
of dwarves; but if it is true you are Thorin (son
of Thrain son of Thror, I believe), and that your
companion is respectable, and that you are enemies
of goblins and are not up to any mischief in my
lands -- what are you up to, by the way?'

'They are on their way to visit the land of their
fathers, away east beyond Mirkwood,' put in Gandalf,
'and it is entirely an accident that we are in your
lands at all....'

Both of these chapters come from the *original* Hobbit story. That
is, while they may have been revised somewhat, they were already a
part of the story before Tolkien finished the book in preparation for
submitting it to Allen & Unwin.

In that first citation, both Thror and Thrain appear to be named as
co-kings. It could be, I suppose, that Thrain was King under the
Mountain along with Thror (but then, all the references to the King
under the Mountain sound funny -- why not say "the Kings under the
Mountain"?). That would sort of agree with the map and "Conversation
with Smaug".

I have some vague recollection of a historical attempt to name kings
as co-kings, but I cannot remember it clearly. I don't think the
experiment worked well or lasted very long.

The second citation indicates that the dwarves of Durin's race were
envisioned to have dwelt EAST OF MIRKWOOD. That is, their ancient
homelands were not in the Misty Mountains, as Tolkien later decided,
but rather in the more distant eastlands.

While the first point might be used to contrive a secondary argument
in favor of <1T>, I don't see anything useful for either side in the
second point. But it does underscore the fact that Tolkien changed a
great many details with respect to dwarvish history which had already
been established -- or at least hinted at -- in THE HOBBIT when he
wrote THE LORD OF THE RINGS.
Bruce Tucker
2004-06-30 00:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
The passage is ambiguous. At least, Tolkien appears to have felt so,
because he never changed it. That is part of the argument.
I agree that it appears that way, in light of the "heirloom of my house"
comment and the failures to change it you cite below. As I said, I know
far, far less about the textual history than most of you involved in the
the thread, so I'll leave off giving opinion on the significance of
that. I just enjoy reading the books and learning what I can about them
here and there. :-)
Post by Michael Martinez
When Tolkien changed Thorin's exposition concerning the history of
Erebor, he didn't change anything else. All other references to
Thrain remained as they had been in the first edition.
So, the Arkenstone of Thrain, said in THE LORD OF THE RINGS to have
been discovered by and named for Thrain I (called Thrain the Old by
Douglas Anderson in his commentary), is still referred to by Thorin as
it was originally: "That stone was my father's".
What, did Thrain II inherit the stone while Thror was still alive?
That does seem out of the question, given the unique place it has among
the treasures of Thorin's house; however, as you are aware, that is not
the interpretation the 1T folks offer for the original meaning of this
text. As to why Tolkien didn't change it later, again, I won't bother
even commenting on that, much less offering an opinion on the merits of
either side's views, but yes, I definitely see the point you've made
here.
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration @ mindspring.com
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-30 00:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
Thorin son of Thrain would not imply a grandson or distant descendant.
But "my father Thrain" or "our father Thrain" could imply either a
direct, biological father; a remote ancestor; or the leader of a
people in Tolkien's various uses of the words "father", "sire", etc.
Fine... cite an example from the works of Tolkien, or any noted author using
the English language, where someone used the phrase "my father" to refer to
someone who was their distant ancestor.

You say this can be done... so surely you can find some case where it has
been.
Post by Michael Martinez
In that first citation, both Thror and Thrain appear to be named as
co-kings. It could be, I suppose, that Thrain was King under the
Mountain along with Thror (but then, all the references to the King
under the Mountain sound funny -- why not say "the Kings under the
Mountain"?). That would sort of agree with the map and "Conversation
with Smaug".
Thror was getting on in years when Smaug attacked. It is possible that
while Thrain had not assumed the throne he was still slowly taking over the
leadership role in preparation for the day that he would.
Odysseus
2004-06-30 07:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Martinez
I have some vague recollection of a historical attempt to name kings
as co-kings, but I cannot remember it clearly. I don't think the
experiment worked well or lasted very long.
The only example I can think of offhand was pretty much a disaster,
and contributed to the disintegration of an empire. As I recall the
story, Henry "Fitz-Empress" Plantagenet, Duke of Normandy, not long
after becoming King Henry II of England, had his son Henry "the Young
King" crowned, presumably in an effort to assure the succession. But
in order to keep his son in check, he gave him no specific properties
or revenues, while the younger sons got important fiefs: Geoffrey
became Count of Brittany, and Richard (_Cœur-de-Lion_, later Richard
I of England) Count of Poitou. Young Henry's resentment of his father
and rivalry with his brothers was a constant factor in the years of
civil war (and conflict with King Philip Augustus of France, to whom
one or another of the "Plantangenet eaglets" frequently turned for
assistance -- which was, of course, readily offered) that
characterized Henry II's reign. Although the young king predeceased
his father, the tone for the rest of the reign and those that
followed had been set, so that by the end of King John Lackland's
time on the throne almost all the Angevin possessions on the
continent had been lost, and the English crown had been seriously
weakened by concessions made to the barons in the _Magna Carta_.
--
Odysseus
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-29 05:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
Post by Steuard Jensen
Where in Tolkien's writings do we see the word "father" used to refer
to a remote ancestor in this way? To the best of me knowledge, there
is only one example, found in the chapter "A Short Rest" of _The
Oh, there are lots of examples.
Good! :)

[For the record, I'm still very interested in these examples, but I've
already conceded in another post that I've probably been pushing the
singular/plural distinction more than is justified.]
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
Durin is described as the "father of that kindred most friendly to
the Elves" from /Of the Naugrim and the Edain/, also in the
published Silmarillion.
Excellent. Of course, as I'm sure you recognize, in substance this
more or less repeats the Durin example already cited from _The
Hobbit_. And thus it's still a reference to the ultimate "founder" of
a race, so it fits with the usage that I'm arguing for.
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
There is "Beor the Old, Father of Men" in the /Annals of Beleriand/,
though "Father of Men" is kind of a set phrase with a special meaning.
I agree. And in particular, I don't think that Beor is really being
referred to as anybody's "ancestor" here, which was (intentionally!)
part of my question. (See the other definition of "father" from the
OED that I quote below.)
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
We also have "Glaurung father of dragons" and "Felarof, father of horses".
The Glaurung example is another good one, it does seem to fit... but
again, Glaurung was in fact the first dragon, the "founder of a
race". So this matches the usage that I've supported as well.

As for Felarof, this quote might mean two things. Felarof was
certainly the "founder of the race" of the Meras, but as for horses
more generally (to whom he was not an ancestor) he might be said to
have been "one to whom filial reverence and obedience are due", a
different definition from the OED (that was "In OE. applied to a
feudal superior.")
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
More interestingly, Dain calls his cousin Thrain the "father of our
Folk" in Appendix A.
This again sounds a lot more like that other definition that I've
cited, since Thrain was not an ancestor of Dain.
Post by Matthew Woodcraft
Compare also "Hurin Hadorion" in the /Wanderings of Hurin/, where Hurin
is not literally Hador's son.
Interesting. I don't know how common that usage is in Tolkien, and it
could easily be meant in the same sense that I am "Steuard Jensen":
I'm presumably descended from someone named "Jen" (or "Jens" or
whatever), but it no longer implies a direct filial relationship.

Steuard Jensen
Odysseus
2004-06-30 07:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
As for Felarof, this quote might mean two things. Felarof was
certainly the "founder of the race" of the Meras, but as for horses
more generally (to whom he was not an ancestor) he might be said to
have been "one to whom filial reverence and obedience are due", a
different definition from the OED (that was "In OE. applied to a
feudal superior.")
Conversely in the same vein, the word "clan" comes from the Gaelic
for "children" -- but in the Scottish Highlands at least, many
"clansmen" weren't even directly related to their chief.
--
Odysseus
Andy Cooke
2004-06-28 20:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Steuard Jensen wrote:

[snip excellent introduction.

NB - I am by no means learned enough on The Hobbit to contribute
in any detailed fashion here - below are notes that have occurred
to me on reading your excellent essay. I will therefore only be
addressing isolated points in the interests of trying to supply
some meaningful feedback.

On to the possible reason for "Here of old was Thrain King under
the Mountain" on the map]
Post by Steuard Jensen
<2T> naturally sees this as the first introduction of Thrain I, the
distant ancestor of Thror who first founded the realm of Erebor and
was King there. He has no detailed history as yet, but he has been
deliberately introduced into the story.
This is certainly the most natural conclusion to draw at this
point, but it leaves a fundamental question unanswered: what was
Tolkien's purpose in introducing Thrain I at this point? Usually
when Tolkien makes references to events and people from the distant
past he does so to create a sense of historical depth for the book.
This is beautifully illustrated by the many references to Gondolin
in _The Hobbit_, to choose one of many examples.
But this lone mention of a King Thrain is very different than those
other historical allusions, because a reader would have to go
through so many deductive steps to recognize it at all. First, she
would have to notice the distinction between King Thrain on the map
and King Thror/Prince Thrain in the text, and take it seriously.
Next, she would have to work out that this King Thrain must have
come before King Thror. After that, she'd have to puzzle out the
significance of the Dwarves who came to the Mountain in Thror's
time as they relate to all this, since they were apparently led by
King Thror: were they related to the earlier King Thrain? Did they
supplant him?
This sort of puzzling out is certainly possible (Tolkien seems to
have done something of the sort when he finally worked out the
detailed history of Thorin's ancestors for Appendix A of LotR), but
the point is that many or most readers (particularly children)
would probably have simply given up somewhere along the way and
concluded that the words on the map were simply mistaken (Tolkien's
words in his prefatory note to the second edition suggest that he
may have even received feedback from readers to that effect; see
the entry for 14 Sep 1950 below). If Tolkien meant for this King
Thrain to add to _The Hobbit_'s historical depth, he was in this
case uncharacteristically unsuccessful.
Indeed. In addition, the use of "Thrain" in such circumstances
would add to the confusion - if such were his intent, an
alternative name (One not repeated elsewhere in the story - such
as none of the other Dwarven names were repeated) would have done
far better to add to the historical depth. For example, if
Tolkien had written "Here of old was Gror King under the
Mountain", the job would have been done.

Even appending a regnal number ("Thrain I") would have been
successful, although slightly elliptical for some younger readers.

[snip]
Post by Steuard Jensen
1949-50: Tolkien writes draft T 4 of the "Tale of Years" for _The Lord
"2590 Thror the Dwarf (of Durin's race) founds the realm of
Erebor (the Lonely Mountain) and becomes 'King under the
Mountain'.[33]"
"'Thror ... founds the realm of Erebor': the history of Thror's
ancestors had not yet emerged."
(All this comes from [Peoples].)
To my mind, this is a critical flaw in the <2T> argument. Tolkien
had returned to the issue, and had stated that Thror founded
Erebor. Not refounded.

[snip up to Arkenstone and meanings of "father"]
Post by Steuard Jensen
"Durin, Durin!" said Thorin. "He was the father of the fathers of
I am his heir."
This fits the OED definition perfectly: Durin was literally the
"founder" of Thorin's race (and family). Moreover, Tolkien is careful
to make this usage clear: he calls Durin "the father of the fathers"
of the Longbeards, or substituting the plural definition, "the father
of the[ir] ancestors". There is absolutely no question here that
Thorin is not referring to his literal father.
Other than that, I know of no case where Tolkien uses "father" in this
way, though he does use the plural "fathers" (or the related plural
"sires") to refer to remote ancestors on a number of occasions.
(Obviously we must exclude Thorin's words about the Arkenstone when
searching for such examples, as their meaning is what we are trying to
deduce. To include them at this point as evidence for either meaning
would be circular reasoning.) And I know of no example by any author
at all where a person uses the possessive term "my father" to refer to
an ancestor more remote than their actual parent, at least without
additional clarification of that meaning. If it does exist, such
usage must be exceedingly rare.
Also bear in mind the audience for which The Hobbit was primarily
intended - most children are not familiar with alternate OED
definitions. When Tolkien did use "Father" in such a non-standard
form within The Hobbit, he was, as you point out, careful to make
it clear that it meant ancestor: "the father of the fathers of the
eldest race of Dwarves ... and my first ancestor"
Post by Steuard Jensen
Finally, <2T> cites a passage from an intermediate draft of "Durin's
Folk" in Appendix A of LotR that was published in [Peoples]. That
passage speaks of the Dwarves' fierce devotion to their children, and
goes on to say that
"The same is true of the attitude of children to parents. For an
injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving
revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as
'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that
the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge
Thror."
This does support the notion that Thorin might think of an earlier
king of his people as a "father". But even here (in a text that was
never in the end published) Tolkien is careful to put "parents" in
quotes: a formal distinction between literal and figurative parents is
maintained. Thorin does not give any such indication that he is not
speaking of his literal father.
Bear in mind also that this text was written many years after The
Hobbit, and for a different audience - the adult readers of LoTR

[snip]
Post by Steuard Jensen
Conclusions
In the end, there are reasons to favor and to doubt both the <1T> and
<2T> positions. Both require us to conclude that Tolkien made
multiple mistakes when writing _The Hobbit_. But where <1T> indicates
mistakes of a mostly "technical" nature (confusing two names or
overlooking a subtle implication of a phrase), <2T> indicates mistakes
that are much more fundamental (introducing a character with no
purpose or misusing the English language). Mistakes like those
required by <1T> are not uncommon in Tolkien's work, but mistakes like
those required by <2T> are very rare for him indeed.
Moreover, both Christopher Tolkien and Douglas Anderson have
explicitly asserted the <1T> position in their published discussions
of _The Hobbit_ and its history. They have almost certainly studied
that history in more detail than anyone else (with the possible
exceptions of Taum Santoski and John Rateliff, whose opinions on the
matter have not yet been publicized). And their words do not even
treat this as a point of contention: they both speak of <1T> as a
simple fact.
Thus, I remain firmly convinced of the <1T> position: I believe that
when _The Hobbit_ was first published, Tolkien had only imagined one
ancestor of Thorin's named Thrain.
An excellent and well reasoned essay, Steuard. I take my hat off
to you, sir.
--
Andy Cooke
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-29 05:24:50 UTC
Permalink
[Referring to the idea that Tolkien meant for "Thrain" on the map to
convey historical depth:]
In addition, the use of "Thrain" in such circumstances would add to
the confusion - if such were his intent, an alternative name (One
not repeated elsewhere in the story - such as none of the other
Dwarven names were repeated) would have done far better to add to
the historical depth. For example, if Tolkien had written "Here of
old was Gror King under the Mountain", the job would have been done.
This is a great argument; I wish I'd used it myself! (I probably
will, if I ever revise the essay; if I do, I'll be sure to give you
credit.)
Even appending a regnal number ("Thrain I") would have been
successful, although slightly elliptical for some younger readers.
True. It might have spoiled the "poetry" of the map, though. :)
An excellent and well reasoned essay, Steuard. I take my hat off to
you, sir.
Thank you very much!
Steuard Jensen
Conrad Dunkerson
2004-06-28 21:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steuard Jensen
3 Oct 1936: Tolkien sends the finished typescript to Allen & Unwin,
who acknowledge its receipt on 5 Oct [Bib]. According to [AH],
this submission includes five maps for the book, including
"early versions of Thror's Map (probably a variant of _Artist_
#85...)" and the Wilderland Map. I have found no statement that
[A&I #85] was the precise copy submitted at this time, although
all seem to believe that it was very similar to the submitted
version.
In A&I itself on page 91 there are a set of instructions from A&U for
changes to the maps. Inserted into those instructions are bracketed
comments from Hammond & Scull;

"in the Mirkwood map [i.e. Wilderland (84)] ... This is indeed the only
alteration needed in Thror's map [85] .... The Esgaroth map [probably the
map of the land east of Mirkwood, centered on the Long Lake]"

Et cetera. There they seem to positively identify the map that A&U received
and commented upon as #85. They may have meant just a general variation of
it, but they used this convention throughout the book and in other cases
noted when they were referring to a variant.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Because [A&I] make no mention of two "final" versions
in different formats (vertical and horizontal) despite its close
study of illustrations, I find it unlikely that an intermediate
"final" version was drawn, despite the comment to that effect in
the admittedly later [AH].
I'd agree and would say that AH just may be somewhat confusing in its
wording on this point.
Post by Steuard Jensen
An alternate possibility, which may or may not have merit, is that
Tolkien decided at this point to change the genealogy to be Thorin
- Thror - Thrain. As explained later (see 21 Feb), Tolkien did
temporarily introduce this change throughout the proofs.
Ok, the text of what CT wrote says that 'at one point' the names became
reversed. I had generally assumed this to mean 'one point in TIME'... you
seem to be taking it as 'one point in the TYPESCRIPT' which then got carried
through to the first set of proofs. That does seem to be a natural reading
of what Christopher wrote, but it would mean that;
Post by Steuard Jensen
20 Feb 1937: Tolkien receives the first set of proofs for the book,
and corrects them [Bib].
Was the earliest time when Thorin son of Thror son of Thrain could have been
written in throughout the entire story... and then it was reversed back in a
later set of proofs. Again, this seems a very likely reading of what
Christopher meant to say... but it is very odd. That would put the name
reversal AFTER the maps... disproving the theories held by BOTH the 2T and
1T positions. Since the 2T claim which has been being made is that the
second Thrain arose out of the name reversal it could not have happened
prior to that reversal. Nor could it simply have been a continuation of the
reversal which did not get switched back, as 1T has held.
Post by Steuard Jensen
Again, to clarify what this says as compared to what both sides
of this discussion have asserted in the past, the proofs had the
reversed genealogy in just one place. Tolkien went through them
from front to back and reversed it everywhere on the proofs, and
then went back through and restored the original (and final)
order.
It says that Santoski and Rateliff minutely examined the proofs and shown
conclusively that Tolkien extended the change through the book... and then
reversed them all back. You are taking this to mean that all of these
changes are to be found on the proofs. I agree that is the natural reading,
but could it not be that they found the names extended all the way through
on the typescript and reversed back on the proofs? Did Santoski and
Rateliff examine ONLY the proofs? I'm not sure, but obviously the precise
timing of all this is fairly important (though I still think trumped by the
'2590 passage').
Post by Steuard Jensen
gold Thror Thrain
accursed be the thief
I can see no other reasonable candidate reading of the second word
given the constraints above.
The possibility (which I agree with) that this second word could be 'Thror'
has been mentioned before, but this time around it seems to have done the
trick so 'kudos'. :)
Post by Steuard Jensen
Is this an accepted meaning for "father"? Yes, it is. The Oxford
"A male ancestor more remote than a parent, esp. the founder of a
race or family, a forefather, progenitor. In pl. ancestors,
forefathers."
The word 'father' can be used to refer to a remote ancestor. The phrases
"of my father" and "my father's" cannot. There IS a difference. You
concentrate on the singular/plural distinction, but I actually agree with
Michael on that point... either CAN be used for a remote ancestor. However,
as you note later, when you specify 'MY father' you have identified
precisely which 'father' is being referred to. Not a 'distant ancestor' but
the 'immediate male parent'. Strained possibilities such as a religious
person calling God 'my father' (usually 'OUR father') might be constructed,
but clearly do not fit what Thorin was saying. It is absolutely inescapable
that he was talking about his direct male parent.
Post by Steuard Jensen
As for <1T>, it should be pointed out that if this non-standard usage
of "father" were accepted, all of the difficulties raised by Anderson
and Christopher Tolkien would be resolved as well. (There wouldn't
even have been any conflict during the Thrain/Thror reversal period,
as Thorin could have been referring to his then-grandfather Thrain as
"my father".) So at worst ("worst" for <1T>), Thorin's phrase "the
Arkenstone of my father" gives no net evidence in favor of _either_
side in this debate. But to the extent that Tolkien's usage of the
singular "father" was reasonably close to that outlined in the OED,
<2T>'s claim that Thorin meant to refer to his remote ancestor Thrain
I would seem to be ruled out.
Heh.
Steuard Jensen
2004-06-29 05:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
I have found no statement that [A&I #85] was the precise copy
submitted at this time
In A&I itself on page 91 there are a set of instructions from A&U for
changes to the maps. Inserted into those instructions are bracketed
comments from Hammond & Scull;
Good point. I hadn't made the connection that those bracketed
references like "[85]" were specifically identifying that as the map
submitted, but it seems like a valid conclusion. (As I said in the
essay, it's not really crucial in any case.)
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
An alternate possibility, which may or may not have merit, is that
Tolkien decided at this point to change the genealogy to be Thorin
- Thror - Thrain. As explained later (see 21 Feb), Tolkien did
temporarily introduce this change throughout the proofs.
Ok, the text of what CT wrote says that 'at one point' the names became
reversed. I had generally assumed this to mean 'one point in TIME'... you
seem to be taking it as 'one point in the TYPESCRIPT' which then got carried
through to the first set of proofs.
The "one point in time" reading was the way I saw it for ages, too.
But when I put it together with Christopher's following comment that

"instead of correcting this one error my father decided to extend
Thorin - Thror - Thrain right through the book",

I was convinced that I'd been wrong. "At one point" is ambiguous, but
"this one error" is not, at least when we're told that he only later
"extend[ed] [it] right through the book".
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
That does seem to be a natural reading of what Christopher wrote,
but it would mean that;
20 Feb 1937: Tolkien receives the first set of proofs for the book,
and corrects them [Bib].
That would put the name reversal AFTER the maps... disproving the
theories held by BOTH the 2T and 1T positions. Since the 2T claim
which has been being made is that the second Thrain arose out of the
name reversal it could not have happened prior to that reversal.
Yeah... as I've said, it's certainly contrary to the history that both
positions have assumed in the past. I don't think that <2T> has to be
modified much to fit, though... as far as I can tell, its position is
only improved by this change. (And <1T> is only hurt.) Still doesn't
explain _why_ Tolkien would introduce that earlier king in such a
subtle way, though. (As Andy Cooke has pointed out, why not name the
ancient king "Gror", or some other unambiguous Dwarf name?)
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Again, to clarify what this says as compared to what both
sides of this discussion have asserted in the past, the
proofs had the reversed genealogy in just one place. Tolkien
went through them from front to back and reversed it
everywhere on the proofs, and then went back through and
restored the original (and final) order.
It says that Santoski and Rateliff minutely examined the proofs and
shown conclusively that Tolkien extended the change through the
book... and then reversed them all back. You are taking this to
mean that all of these changes are to be found on the proofs.
As I've argued elsewhere, if these changes had been _printed_ on the
proofs, why would any "minute" examination have been necessary?
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
I agree that is the natural reading, but could it not be that they
found the names extended all the way through on the typescript and
reversed back on the proofs?
It could be... but that seems inconsistent both with the phrasing here
and with Christopher's reference to "this one error".
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Did Santoski and Rateliff examine ONLY the proofs? I'm not sure...
I'd be surprised if they hadn't examined every page of every
version. :) But Christopher speaks in this case specificly of the
proofs.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
...but obviously the precise timing of all this is fairly important
(though I still think trumped by the '2590 passage').
I agree, on both counts. (And also trumped by the oddity and subtlety
of the "Thrain" addition in the first place, in my mind.)
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
The word 'father' can be used to refer to a remote ancestor. The
phrases "of my father" and "my father's" cannot. There IS a
difference. You concentrate on the singular/plural distinction, but
I actually agree with Michael on that point... either CAN be used
for a remote ancestor.
I've essentially bowed to broad pressure on this count and fallen back
to the position you've taken here (which I think is extremely strong),
even though I still think that in practice Tolkien maintained the more
specific usage of the singular "father" that I've described (when
applied to a remote ancestor). :)
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
Strained possibilities such as a religious person calling God 'my
father' (usually 'OUR father') might be constructed,
I had that specific example in mind when I was careful to specify use
of the term of an "ancestor", in fact.
Post by Conrad Dunkerson
As for <1T>, it should be pointed out that if this non-standard
usage of "father" were accepted, all of the difficulties raised by
Anderson and Christopher Tolkien would be resolved as well.
(There wouldn't even have been any conflict during the
Thrain/Thror reversal period, as Thorin could have been referring
to his then-grandfather Thrain as "my father".) So at worst
("worst" for <1T>), Thorin's phrase "the Arkenstone of my father"
gives no net evidence in favor of _either_ side in this debate.
Heh.
Yeah, I was rather surprised (and pleased) when I noticed this. As
far as I can tell, the only evidence that really remains to favor <2T>
over <1T> is the name "Thrain" on the map (that is, the claim that it
was not a mistake) and possibly Thorin's use of the word "heirloom" to
refer to the Arkenstone.

Steuard Jensen
Loading...