Discussion:
FAQ on Tolkien and Racism
(too old to reply)
The Consigliere
2004-04-12 02:22:50 UTC
Permalink
FAQ ON TOLKIEN AND RACISM
---------------------------

I have been involved in a lot of discussion with friends who are
genuinely concerned with the perceived racial elements of Tolkien.
Also seeing the volume of posts on this subject I thought it might be
advisable to compile all the arguments into one single FAQ so as to
save future effort and redundant recycling of arguments. Next time
someone comes up and asks whether Tolkien was a racist I can just copy
and paste it.

It took me a while to find all the quotes but using Stuart Jensen's
comments from http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html#Racist and
Mike Brinza's FAQ as starting points helped to find them a lot
quicker.

As a biased fan and I may have missed a lot of points so I would
appreciate any further arguments from either side.

Anyways, here it is:

------
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (…etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
------
As many posters have repeatedly mentioned, the story was written as a
mythology for Northern Europe and specifically England. Tolkien
explicitly states his motivation in Letter #131; "I was from early
days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country; it has no
stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the
quality that I sought, and found in legends of other lands. There was
Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, and Germanic, and Scandinavian, and
Finnish; but nothing English; and does not replace what I felt to be
missing."

This would explain why most human races in the story are 'white'. You
wouldn't expect to see a large number of Caucasians in an Indian,
African or Chinese myth would you?

Another factor is that Tolkien had used Celtic and Teutonic myths and
the myths of the Anglo-Saxons of pre-medieval England as inspiration
for his story.

An internal answer would be that Middle Earth resembles the
descriptions of the English countryside, the northern reaches of
Scandinavia, Ireland and Scotland therefore it would damage the
authenticity of this geographical setting if races from other parts of
the world inhabited these lands.

As a testament to how inclusive he was it may be worthwhile (even if
it is irrelevant) to mention that he had considered non-European
societies when constructing some of his cultures. Evidence of this can
be found in Letter #211 where Tolkien compared several significant
aspects of the society of Gondor to that of ancient Egypt.

-----
2. Why was he so concerned about England and Northern Europe over
other parts of the world? Isn't he overly preoccupied with Nordic
regions?
-----
Personally I think this question is counter-intuitive but I have heard
it being asked in earnestness many times so I will answer it using the
following quote from Letter #294: "Auden has asserted that for me ‘the
North is a sacred direction'. That is not true. The North-west of
Europe, where I (and most of my ancestors) have lived, has my
affection, as a man's home should."

He also takes offence at the use of the word ‘Nordic' as "a word I
personally dislike; it is associated with racialist theories". And in
any case "the action of the story takes place in the North-west of
'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and
the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely
'Nordic' area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as
intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith,
600 miles south, is about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of
Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of
ancient Troy."

-----
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that 'black'
represents evil and 'white' represents good?
-----
Yes; but I don't believe this to be racial distinction. Almost all
mythology and imaginative stories in human history, whatever culture
or society, have made the association of 'Darkness' to Evil and
'Light' to Good. This should not be mistaken for distinction based on
colour of skin.

The sun is the primary source of energy for all living things. Humans
are diurnal creatures and have always been afraid of the night. Thus
it is not very hard to see why light and darkness have created these
associations in our historical psyche.

The reasons are obvious as Tolkien states in Letter #131; "Light is
such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, that it can
hardly be analysed".

-----
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
-----
It is important to remember that Orcs, Elves and Dwarves are
completely different species, not different races of humans. It's a
bit like comparing a domesticated dog to a tiger in the wild. In fact
orcs aren't really even ‘natural' beings, but were actually
manufactured by the Enemy.

-----
5. How about the different classes of Humans that are defined by their
blood and ancestry? In the Gondorian society why are the men of
Numenorean decent considered nobler than men of mixed blood?
-----
This is probably the question that has the least satisfactory answer.
During Tolkien's time there was a commonly held conception in his
society that blood carried a set of rights with it. Even in this day
the British (and many other societies) have a monarch and an
aristocracy. This is really more to do with the right of material
inheritance rather than the qualities inherent in blood.

We can find a more plausible answer in the story of the Edain,
ancestors of Numenoreans, who "alone of the kindred of men fought for
the Valar (gods), whereas many others fought for Morgoth." and for
this they were rewarded with "wisdom and power and life more enduring
than any other of the mortal race have possessed" (from the
Akallabeth). I think all three characteristics were not just 'learnt'
but were permanently endowed in their biology, to be passed on to
their heirs. In addition to this the descendants of Elros further
enriched the Numenorean blood. (Elros being the Elf who chose to be a
human, one of only two Elves to be given that choice.)

Even given these gifts we know that the Numenoreans commit grievous
crimes, eventually resulting in great catastrophe. The damage that
they caused due to their arrogance and thirst for power was far
greater than any other that Humans or Elves have caused since.

-----
6. Ok then let us look at the different races of humans, the Haradrim
and the Easterlings were described as swarthy and squint-eyed. Tolkien
mentioned in the Two Towers that "they were ever ready to His
(Sauron's) will". Doesn't that imply that they are racially
predisposed to evil?
-----
That statement was made by the character Damrod, a Ranger of Ithilien,
and thus you must take into account his biased view towards his
country's historical enemies.

It is true that at the time of the War of the Ring, the Haradrim and
the Easterlings were allied with the Enemy, but this was not always
so. During Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Bór, the Chieftain of the Men from the
East allied himself and many of his people with the Sons of Feanor
against the forces of Morgoth.

We also have to consider their particular geographic position. The men
of the West have access to the knowledge and experience of the Elves
and Numenoreans, who have had extensive prior dealings with Morgoth
and Sauron. The Southrons and Easterlings on the other hand are left
to fend for themselves without such information.

It may also be true that the men of the West are more technologically
advanced than those in the south and the east, because they had
extensive connections with Numenor in it's prime. In addition the
exiles of Numenor had formed kingdoms and colonies in the west.
Unfortunately for the Southrons and Easterlings, they had no such
technological advantage available to them, making them a weaker
opposition. They simply had to comply with the wishes of Mordor.

In LotR Tolkien has in fact made a point of making sure the reader
considers the terrible situation that these 'strange' men were in. He
wants us to understand what compelled them to do what they did. Sam,
after witnessing the death of an Easterling in a skirmish, wonders
"what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really
evil at heart, or what lies or threats had lead him in the long march
from home; and if he really would rather have stayed there in peace."

Also as I mentioned earlier, even the Numenoreans, who are considered
the most noble of Humans did commit great crimes.

We also know that some of the men of Gondor and Bree are dark skinned.

-----
7. Aren't the bad characters predominantly black or ‘swarthy', i.e.
Melkor, Sauron, Bill Ferny?
-----
How about Saruman, Grima, Gollum, Boromir, and Denethor? There are
just too many exceptions when you consider individual characters.
Melkor is a Valar and Sauron is Maia in any case.

-----
8. This statement was made by Tolkien in Letter #210: "Orcs are squat,
broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in
fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least
lovely Mongol-types." How is this not racist?
-----
This statement gave me a lot of grief initially. At first glance it
can be taken as evidence of racism. However as a poster on this board
(I've infortunately forgotten who it was) mentioned a long while back,
the qualifier; "to Europeans" actually proves otherwise. It shows that
he actually acknowledges the different measures of beauty existent in
different cultures. He shows that beauty is not an absolute quality
but is rather in the eye of the beholder whose opinions are shaped by
social constraints.

I have to admit that by today's standards this statement is highly
inflammatory and insensitive and can be taken as evidence of his
sub-conscious prejudices.

-----
9. He also stated in Letter #45 (9 June 1941) that: "There is a great
deal more force (and truth) than ignorant people imagine in the
'Germanic' ideal." Isn't this admitting support for the policies of
Nazi Germany?
-----
The term 'Germanic Ideal' has been used in modern historic literature,
erroneously and far too prolifically, to describe the ideals of Nazi
Germany. This identification is racist in itself. The term could very
easily mean the ideals of Kant, Hegel, Heidegger or Schopenhauer; all
more influential than that "ruddy little ignoramus" (Tolkien's words);
Hitler.

"You have to understand the good in things to detect the real evil".
These words follow almost directly from the above statement. To me
this shows a mind more than ordinarily aware of the importance of
empathy and understanding of those who are different from us.

And goes on to say that the Nazis are "ruining, perverting,
misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit,
which I have ever loved and presented in it's true light."

Tolkien does admit to feeling that obedience and patriotism are
virtues, but then again most people still feel this way today.

-----
Here are some further statements made by him that goes a long way in
showing that he is in fact ahead of his times when it came to ideas of
pluralism and equality:

"There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating
systematic extermination of the entire German nation as the only
proper course of after military victory….The German have just as much
right to declare Poles and Jews as exterminable vermin as we have to
select the Germans; in other words, no right". – Letter #81

To me this communicates his ability to perceive beyond the prevalent
mists of nationalistic antagonism to come to a rational outlook of the
whole matter. If only the political leaders of his time and ours had
such clear sight.

This next scathing letter was written to German publishers who
inquired whether he was ‘arisch' or Jewish. The laws of Germany at the
time required this inquiry before any work was to be published:

"…I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by ‘arisch'. I am
not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware
none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related
dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I
am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret to have no
ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to
England in the eighteenth century from Germany:…I have accustomed…to
regard my German name with pride…
…I cannot, however forbear to comment that if impertinent and
irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of
literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will
no longer he a source of pride." – Letter #30 (25 July 1938:
Unfortunately his London agents failed to pass on this letter to the
intended recipients for fear of financial repercussions.}

In my mind this letter absolves any doubt about Tolkien's values. He
is not only extraordinarily modern and rational but he also has the
courage to stand up for his pluralistic values. His tone and dry
sarcasm shows how deeply he is offended by the racist attitudes of the
German publishers.

As Aule said a while back (in a post that I had luckily saved); "One
of the major themes of Lord of the Rings is the coming together of the
races in a common cause. It's just that the races are elves, dwarves,
men, and hobbits rather than Whites, Blacks, Orientals, etc."

The fact of the matter is that most of us have preconceptions and
prejudices in our minds. Tolkien is no exception. But by considering
his rhetoric in social context I think we can safely claim that he was
indeed far ahead of his time in his inclusive and pluralistic
perspective of the world.

The key to dealing racism is to accept that they exist within each of
us and do everything you can to defeat it within yourself.

Take care, TC
-----
PS; This is a copy of an essay I originally posted for the Tolkien
board on IMDB:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866058/board/nest/4761136

BB's reply to my post on that site was quite insightful and I would
like to repost it here in the near future. But till that time please
follow the link provided above to access it.
-----
AC
2004-04-12 04:21:47 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Apr 2004 19:22:50 -0700,
Post by The Consigliere
-----
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that 'black'
represents evil and 'white' represents good?
-----
Yes; but I don't believe this to be racial distinction. Almost all
mythology and imaginative stories in human history, whatever culture
or society, have made the association of 'Darkness' to Evil and
'Light' to Good. This should not be mistaken for distinction based on
colour of skin.
The sun is the primary source of energy for all living things. Humans
are diurnal creatures and have always been afraid of the night. Thus
it is not very hard to see why light and darkness have created these
associations in our historical psyche.
The reasons are obvious as Tolkien states in Letter #131; "Light is
such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, that it can
hardly be analysed".
I wasn't aware that Orcs were black, unless you mean products of the
Darkness sort of thing. I think the thing that must be remembered that
Elves, Orcs and Dwarves do not represent any race of humans extent or
extinct.
Post by The Consigliere
-----
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
-----
It is important to remember that Orcs, Elves and Dwarves are
completely different species, not different races of humans. It's a
bit like comparing a domesticated dog to a tiger in the wild. In fact
orcs aren't really even ‘natural' beings, but were actually
manufactured by the Enemy.
Yes Orcs aren't nice. As to Elves, some of the most heinous crimes
committed in the mythos were done by Elves, and Dwarves could also be
doughty allies, steadfast and the most resistant to domination by the likes
of Sauron.
Post by The Consigliere
-----
7. Aren't the bad characters predominantly black or ‘swarthy', i.e.
Melkor, Sauron, Bill Ferny?
-----
How about Saruman, Grima, Gollum, Boromir, and Denethor? There are
just too many exceptions when you consider individual characters.
Melkor is a Valar and Sauron is Maia in any case.
Melkor certainly wasn't black. Sauron was black, but not in the African
sense of the word.
--
Aaron Clausen
***@hotmail.com
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 04:32:55 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien AC <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

: I wasn't aware that Orcs were black, unless you mean products of the
: Darkness sort of thing. I think the thing that must be remembered that
: Elves, Orcs and Dwarves do not represent any race of humans extent or
: extinct.

The majority of the descriptions of Orcs in LOTR that mention
skin color describe them as black skinned.

Stephen
Aris Katsaris
2004-04-12 14:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
: I wasn't aware that Orcs were black, unless you mean products of the
: Darkness sort of thing. I think the thing that must be remembered that
: Elves, Orcs and Dwarves do not represent any race of humans extent or
: extinct.
The majority of the descriptions of Orcs in LOTR that mention
skin color describe them as black skinned.
I think it would be more accurate to say that occasionally black orcs are
mentioned -- and in a way that indicates this skin-color is probably
an *exception*, not the norm for orcs. (for example, when we are told
that the uruks were "blacks orcs of great strength")

In contrast the phrase: "But there were some others that were horrible:
man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. " seems
to me to indicate that most golbins were "sallow" instead --- that it
was perhaps only the Uruks that were black.

Aris Katsaris
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 15:30:43 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:

: <***@nomail.com> wrote in message news:c5d65n$13gb$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
:> In rec.arts.books.tolkien AC <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>
:> : I wasn't aware that Orcs were black, unless you mean products of the
:> : Darkness sort of thing. I think the thing that must be remembered that
:> : Elves, Orcs and Dwarves do not represent any race of humans extent or
:> : extinct.
:>
:> The majority of the descriptions of Orcs in LOTR that mention
:> skin color describe them as black skinned.

: I think it would be more accurate to say that occasionally black orcs are
: mentioned -- and in a way that indicates this skin-color is probably
: an *exception*, not the norm for orcs. (for example, when we are told
: that the uruks were "blacks orcs of great strength")

No, it is perfectly accurate to say that the majority, if not all,
of the descriptions of Orc skin color in LOTR say 'black' or 'swart'. You
can claim they were just the exceptions, but we are never told
that Orcs have any color other than 'black' or 'swart'.

: In contrast the phrase: "But there were some others that were horrible:
: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. " seems
: to me to indicate that most golbins were "sallow" instead --- that it
: was perhaps only the Uruks that were black.

The tracker Orc in Mordor was black. The above is a description
of the "goblin men", not Orcs. I suppose you can use this
one description of non-Orcs to decide that Orcs in general were
not black, but I do not think it unreasonable for someone to conclude
that Orcs were black given that they are repeatedly described
as black.

Stephen
Aris Katsaris
2004-04-12 16:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
:>
:> The majority of the descriptions of Orcs in LOTR that mention
:> skin color describe them as black skinned.
: I think it would be more accurate to say that occasionally black orcs are
: mentioned -- and in a way that indicates this skin-color is probably
: an *exception*, not the norm for orcs. (for example, when we are told
: that the uruks were "blacks orcs of great strength")
No, it is perfectly accurate to say that the majority, if not all,
of the descriptions of Orc skin color in LOTR say 'black' or 'swart'.
You
can claim they were just the exceptions, but we are never told
that Orcs have any color other than 'black' or 'swart'.
Doesn't "sallow" means pale?

And doesn't Tolkien explicitely describe Orcs as "sallow-skinned" in
his letters?
Post by s***@nomail.com
: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. " seems
: to me to indicate that most golbins were "sallow" instead --- that it
: was perhaps only the Uruks that were black.
The tracker Orc in Mordor was black.
I suppose you can use this
one description of non-Orcs to decide that Orcs in general were
not black, but I do not think it unreasonable for someone to conclude
that Orcs were black given that they are repeatedly described
as black.
It depends on how it's used. When Pippin says something to the point
of "Pippin saw a large black Orc facing Grishnakh", that indicates
to me that not all the orcs in the company were black.

Aris Katsaris
Tar-Elenion
2004-04-12 18:17:17 UTC
Permalink
In article <c5ehkd$esp$***@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, ***@otenet.gr
says...
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by s***@nomail.com
:>
:> The majority of the descriptions of Orcs in LOTR that mention
:> skin color describe them as black skinned.
: I think it would be more accurate to say that occasionally black orcs are
: mentioned -- and in a way that indicates this skin-color is probably
: an *exception*, not the norm for orcs. (for example, when we are told
: that the uruks were "blacks orcs of great strength")
No, it is perfectly accurate to say that the majority, if not all,
of the descriptions of Orc skin color in LOTR say 'black' or 'swart'.
You
can claim they were just the exceptions, but we are never told
that Orcs have any color other than 'black' or 'swart'.
Doesn't "sallow" means pale?
And doesn't Tolkien explicitely describe Orcs as "sallow-skinned" in
his letters?
Letter 210:
"The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form
seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed,
sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and
repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 18:27:49 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:

: <***@nomail.com> wrote in message news:c5ecn3$23th$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
:> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:
:>
:> : <***@nomail.com> wrote in message
: news:c5d65n$13gb$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
:> :>
:> :> The majority of the descriptions of Orcs in LOTR that mention
:> :> skin color describe them as black skinned.
:>
:> : I think it would be more accurate to say that occasionally black orcs are
:> : mentioned -- and in a way that indicates this skin-color is probably
:> : an *exception*, not the norm for orcs. (for example, when we are told
:> : that the uruks were "blacks orcs of great strength")
:>
:> No, it is perfectly accurate to say that the majority, if not all,
:> of the descriptions of Orc skin color in LOTR say 'black' or 'swart'.
:> You
:> can claim they were just the exceptions, but we are never told
:> that Orcs have any color other than 'black' or 'swart'.

: Doesn't "sallow" means pale?

: And doesn't Tolkien explicitely describe Orcs as "sallow-skinned" in
: his letters?

:> : In contrast the phrase: "But there were some others that were horrible:
:> : man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. " seems
:> : to me to indicate that most golbins were "sallow" instead --- that it
:> : was perhaps only the Uruks that were black.
:>
:> The tracker Orc in Mordor was black.

:> I suppose you can use this
:> one description of non-Orcs to decide that Orcs in general were
:> not black, but I do not think it unreasonable for someone to conclude
:> that Orcs were black given that they are repeatedly described
:> as black.

: It depends on how it's used. When Pippin says something to the point
: of "Pippin saw a large black Orc facing Grishnakh", that indicates
: to me that not all the orcs in the company were black.

But he does not describe them that way in LOTR. As described in
LOTR, they are described as black when described at all. If
you only describe something as black, people are going to think
they are black.

Then of course, Gollum is described as both sallow and black.

Stephen
Aris Katsaris
2004-04-12 19:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
If
you only describe something as black, people are going to think
they are black.
That's why many people think that most elves are golden-haired,
because Tolkien used to mention only the exceptions to the norm
in LOTR.

When people see *specific* orcs described as black, as if used
to differentiate them from other orcs, then they should think that
there's variation among their number.

Aris Katsaris
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 19:22:59 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:

: <***@nomail.com> wrote in message news:c5en35$2ei5$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
:> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:
:>
:> If
:> you only describe something as black, people are going to think
:> they are black.

: That's why many people think that most elves are golden-haired,
: because Tolkien used to mention only the exceptions to the norm
: in LOTR.

But some elves are said to have black hair, and some are said
to have blonde hair. Every orc whose skin color is mentioned
is 'black' or 'swart'.

: When people see *specific* orcs described as black, as if used
: to differentiate them from other orcs, then they should think that
: there's variation among their number.

: Aris Katsaris

But we are never told what *unspecific* orcs look like. If you
read the book, you are never told what orcs look like, until
Moria, where we meet 'black uruks or Mordor' and a huge orc-chieftan
whose 'broad flat face was swart'.

What color did you imagine Orcs were and why? Why wouldn't someone
assume they were black given they are described as black?

Stephen
Tar-Elenion
2004-04-12 20:20:15 UTC
Permalink
In article <c5eqaj$2ei5$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, ***@nomail.com
says...
Post by s***@nomail.com
:>
:> If
:> you only describe something as black, people are going to think
:> they are black.
: That's why many people think that most elves are golden-haired,
: because Tolkien used to mention only the exceptions to the norm
: in LOTR.
But some elves are said to have black hair, and some are said
to have blonde hair. Every orc whose skin color is mentioned
is 'black' or 'swart'.
I don't think that any Elves in LotR are said to have black hair (until
you get all the way to App. F).
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 20:30:47 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Tar-Elenion <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
: In article <c5eqaj$2ei5$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, ***@nomail.com
: says...
:> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:
:>
:> : <***@nomail.com> wrote in message news:c5en35$2ei5$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
:> :> In rec.arts.books.tolkien Aris Katsaris <***@otenet.gr> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> If
:> :> you only describe something as black, people are going to think
:> :> they are black.
:>
:> : That's why many people think that most elves are golden-haired,
:> : because Tolkien used to mention only the exceptions to the norm
:> : in LOTR.
:>
:> But some elves are said to have black hair, and some are said
:> to have blonde hair. Every orc whose skin color is mentioned
:> is 'black' or 'swart'.
:>
: I don't think that any Elves in LotR are said to have black hair (until
: you get all the way to App. F).

I was thinking of Arwen and Elrond, although I guess technically
they are half-elven. In any case, it would not be unreasonable
for someone to assume that all 'full' elves had blonde or silver hair,
as many people do.

Stephen
Tar-Elenion
2004-04-12 20:52:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <c5eu9o$2lap$***@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, ***@nomail.com
says...
Post by s***@nomail.com
: says...
:>
:> :>
:> :> If
:> :> you only describe something as black, people are going to think
:> :> they are black.
:>
:> : That's why many people think that most elves are golden-haired,
:> : because Tolkien used to mention only the exceptions to the norm
:> : in LOTR.
:>
:> But some elves are said to have black hair, and some are said
:> to have blonde hair. Every orc whose skin color is mentioned
:> is 'black' or 'swart'.
:>
: I don't think that any Elves in LotR are said to have black hair (until
: you get all the way to App. F).
I was thinking of Arwen and Elrond, although I guess technically
they are half-elven.
That is how I consider them.
Post by s***@nomail.com
In any case, it would not be unreasonable
for someone to assume that all 'full' elves had blonde or silver hair,
as many people do.
Yes, although now that I think about it, Luthien's hair is described as
dark or shadowy or some such in Aragorn's song. But that is probably
rather obscure enough that folks don't pay attention to remember.
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
Christopher Kreuzer
2004-04-12 21:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tar-Elenion
Yes, although now that I think about it, Luthien's hair is described
as dark or shadowy or some such in Aragorn's song. But that is
probably rather obscure enough that folks don't pay attention to
remember.
Three references: 'shadow', 'shadows', 'shadowy'.
Very obscure. More likely to remember the starlight in her hair.
Bruce Tucker
2004-04-12 18:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aris Katsaris
Doesn't "sallow" means pale?
And doesn't Tolkien explicitely describe Orcs as "sallow-skinned" in
his letters?
Sallow means sickly yellow and unhealthy-looking in complexion. It could
be light or dark, but only so dark. A darker-skinned person described as
being "sallow" would have yellow-grey skin as opposed to a ruddy, red,
or brown complexion - and presumably, in a traditional view based on the
notion of the "four humours", a choleric or perhaps phlegmatic
temperament as opposed to a sanguine one.

And yes, "sallow" is used at least as often as "swart" in describing
orcs and goblins and goblin-men.
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration @ mindspring.com
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 19:12:21 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Bruce Tucker <disintegration @ mindspring.com> wrote:
: "Aris Katsaris" <***@otenet.gr> wrote

:> Doesn't "sallow" means pale?
:>
:> And doesn't Tolkien explicitely describe Orcs as "sallow-skinned" in
:> his letters?


: Sallow means sickly yellow and unhealthy-looking in complexion. It could
: be light or dark, but only so dark. A darker-skinned person described as
: being "sallow" would have yellow-grey skin as opposed to a ruddy, red,
: or brown complexion - and presumably, in a traditional view based on the
: notion of the "four humours", a choleric or perhaps phlegmatic
: temperament as opposed to a sanguine one.

: And yes, "sallow" is used at least as often as "swart" in describing
: orcs and goblins and goblin-men.

Cite one passage in LOTR where an Orc is described as 'sallow'.
I can give you 5 or 6 where they are described as 'black' or 'swart'.
I cannot find a single passage that describes an Orc as 'sallow'.

Stephen
TT Arvind
2004-04-12 21:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
Cite one passage in LOTR where an Orc is described as 'sallow'.
I can give you 5 or 6 where they are described as 'black' or 'swart'.
I cannot find a single passage that describes an Orc as 'sallow'.
I don't think one exists, and from the confidence with which you're
posing the question, I suspect you've checked. But, to be honest, I
think it's as ridiculous to expect all orcs to have the same complexion
as it is to expect all humans to have the same hue. Humans don't in the
LoTR, and nor, I think, do the orcs. The fact that orc-men seem to be
'sallower' than normal men seems to indicate that some orcs, at least,
were sallow.


Meneldil
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-12 22:05:33 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien TT Arvind <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Wes ðu ***@nomail.com hal!

:> Cite one passage in LOTR where an Orc is described as 'sallow'.
:> I can give you 5 or 6 where they are described as 'black' or 'swart'.
:> I cannot find a single passage that describes an Orc as 'sallow'.

: I don't think one exists, and from the confidence with which you're
: posing the question, I suspect you've checked. But, to be honest, I
: think it's as ridiculous to expect all orcs to have the same complexion
: as it is to expect all humans to have the same hue. Humans don't in the
: LoTR, and nor, I think, do the orcs. The fact that orc-men seem to be
: 'sallower' than normal men seems to indicate that some orcs, at least,
: were sallow.

Orcs are a fictional creature. Who knows what they look like, or how
much they vary? Many real world creatures come in a very limited
range of skin colors. Tolkien's elves are described as having fair skin.
Is that ridiculous?

Stephen
TT Arvind
2004-04-12 23:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
Orcs are a fictional creature. Who knows what they look like, or how
much they vary? Many real world creatures come in a very limited
range of skin colors. Tolkien's elves are described as having fair skin.
Is that ridiculous?
I never pictured all elves as having fair skin. Does Tolkien say
anywhere that all of them - including the Avari - had fair skin?
--
Conway's Law: In any organization there will always be one person who
knows what is going on. This person must be fired.
Christopher Kreuzer
2004-04-12 23:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by TT Arvind
Post by s***@nomail.com
Orcs are a fictional creature. Who knows what they look like, or how
much they vary? Many real world creatures come in a very limited
range of skin colors. Tolkien's elves are described as having fair
skin. Is that ridiculous?
I never pictured all elves as having fair skin. Does Tolkien say
anywhere that all of them - including the Avari - had fair skin?
Why the Avari? They were the 'Unwilling' Elves that didn't answer the
call to go to Aman. They are a subset of the those who did not go to
Aman, the Moriquendi or Dark Elves. Sometimes the Avari were referred to
as Dark Elves, but the term is always a reference to the fact that they
had not seen the Light of the Two Trees or the Light of Aman. In this
context 'Dark' is to do with light and darkness. Nothing whatsoever to
do with any skin colour.

Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
TT Arvind
2004-04-13 00:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!
Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Why the Avari? They were the 'Unwilling' Elves that didn't answer the
call to go to Aman.
I know that - I was making a differen point. The OP suggested that all
elves were described by JRRT as having light skin. I was wondering where
JRRT had said that, and if it was a general statement in relation to all
elves, or only a particular set.
--
Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus alacribus et
fructuosis potiri potes!
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-13 00:01:24 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien TT Arvind <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Wes ðu ***@nomail.com hal!

:> Orcs are a fictional creature. Who knows what they look like, or how
:> much they vary? Many real world creatures come in a very limited
:> range of skin colors. Tolkien's elves are described as having fair skin.
:> Is that ridiculous?

: I never pictured all elves as having fair skin. Does Tolkien say
: anywhere that all of them - including the Avari - had fair skin?

Why would you assume that only the darker skinned Elves refused the summons
of the Valar?

Stephen
TT Arvind
2004-04-13 00:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
Why would you assume that only the darker skinned Elves refused the summons
of the Valar?
I did nothing of that sort. I assumed the elves to be a mixed bunch in
terms of skin hues, and do not recall reading anything to suggest that I
was wrong. Where exactly does Tolkien say that all elves are fair-
skinned?
--
The straightest arrow is still a bringer of death
a bent harp still brings melodies and joy
- the tirukkural
Tar-Elenion
2004-04-13 01:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by TT Arvind
Post by s***@nomail.com
Why would you assume that only the darker skinned Elves refused the summons
of the Valar?
I did nothing of that sort. I assumed the elves to be a mixed bunch in
terms of skin hues, and do not recall reading anything to suggest that I
was wrong. Where exactly does Tolkien say that all elves are fair-
skinned?
He does say that some Elves are 'ruddy' (e.g. the kin of Nerdanel), and
there was some reference or another to Maeglin being dark-skinned in an
earlier version (IIRC, which I may not be).
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
TT Arvind
2004-04-13 20:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Wes ðu Tar-Elenion hal!
Post by Tar-Elenion
He does say that some Elves are 'ruddy' (e.g. the kin of Nerdanel), and
there was some reference or another to Maeglin being dark-skinned in an
earlier version (IIRC, which I may not be).
Thank you - I thought I vaguely remembered something about either Eol or
Maeglin's skin colour being described as dark in an early draft as well,
which is why I specifically asked the question about whether Tolkien said
all Elves - including the non-Eldar - were fair-skinned.
--
Grau, treuer Freund, ist alle Theorie,
und grün des Lebens goldener Baum
- Goethe
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-13 21:26:27 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien TT Arvind <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Wes ðu Tar-Elenion hal!

:> He does say that some Elves are 'ruddy' (e.g. the kin of Nerdanel), and
:> there was some reference or another to Maeglin being dark-skinned in an
:> earlier version (IIRC, which I may not be).

: Thank you - I thought I vaguely remembered something about either Eol or
: Maeglin's skin colour being described as dark in an early draft as well,
: which is why I specifically asked the question about whether Tolkien said
: all Elves - including the non-Eldar - were fair-skinned.

In the early drafts it also says he was rumored to have Orc blood. He
also, in all versions, was a treacherous villain. In the Silmarillion
his skin is explicity described as 'white'.

In LOTR, Tolkien describes the Eldar, the People of the Great Journey,
as tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed. Of course, he seems to be a bit
confused here, confusing "Eldar" with "Noldor" because he then says they were all
dark haired, except for the golden house of Finarfin. If he meant "Eldar",
then only the Avari might not have been fair of skin.

Stephen
Christopher Kreuzer
2004-04-13 21:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
In LOTR
Appendix F, the very last paragraph of the book (excluding notes, trust
Tolkien to end the book with three notes).
Post by s***@nomail.com
Tolkien describes the Eldar, the People of the Great Journey,
as tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed. Of course, he seems to be a bit
confused here, confusing "Eldar" with "Noldor" because he then says
they were all dark haired, except for the golden house of Finarfin.
Tolkien confused? Heretic!! :-)

The only excuse is that he is writing a note to LotR, in which the Eldar
are all Noldor. But I agree that it is still confusing.

Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Aris Katsaris
2004-04-13 22:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Post by s***@nomail.com
In LOTR
Appendix F, the very last paragraph of the book (excluding notes, trust
Tolkien to end the book with three notes).
Post by s***@nomail.com
Tolkien describes the Eldar, the People of the Great Journey,
as tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed. Of course, he seems to be a bit
confused here, confusing "Eldar" with "Noldor" because he then says
they were all dark haired, except for the golden house of Finarfin.
Tolkien confused? Heretic!! :-)
The only excuse is that he is writing a note to LotR, in which the Eldar
are all Noldor. But I agree that it is still confusing.
IIRC the drafts to the appendices show that this was a messup caused
when he shortened an earlier passage in which he was referring to the
Noldor alone as dark-haired...

Aris Katsaris
Tar-Elenion
2004-04-13 22:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Post by s***@nomail.com
In LOTR
Appendix F, the very last paragraph of the book (excluding notes, trust
Tolkien to end the book with three notes).
Post by s***@nomail.com
Tolkien describes the Eldar, the People of the Great Journey,
as tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed. Of course, he seems to be a bit
confused here, confusing "Eldar" with "Noldor" because he then says
they were all dark haired, except for the golden house of Finarfin.
Tolkien confused? Heretic!! :-)
The only excuse is that he is writing a note to LotR, in which the Eldar
are all Noldor. But I agree that it is still confusing.
Christopher
The passage originally read:
"I have sometimes (not in this book) used 'Gnomes' for Noldor
and 'Gnomish' for Noldorin. This I did, for whatever Para-
celsus may have thought (if indeed he invented the name) to
some 'Gnome' will still suggest knowledge. Now the High-
elven name of this people, Noldor, signifies Those who Know;
for of the three kindreds of the Eldar from their beginning the
Noldor were ever distinguished both by their knowledge of
things that are and were in this world, and by their desire to
know more. Yet they in no way resembled the Gnomes either
of learned theory or popular fancy; and I have now abandoned
this rendering as too misleading. For the Noldor belonged to
a race high and beautiful, the elder Children of the world,
who now are gone. Tall they were, fair-skinned and grey-
eyed, and their locks were dark, save in the golden house of
Finrod...".
CT commented:
"Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually
written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar
had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin's Vanyarin mother Indis that
he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden
hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am
unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose."
See BoLT 1, and PoME where CT reprises the issue and adds:
"But my father carefully remodelled the passage in order to apply it to
the Eldar as a whole, and it does indeed seem 'extraordinary' that he
should have failed to observe this point. It seems possible that when he
re-used the passage in this way the conception of the golden hair of the
Vanyar had not yet arisen.(4)"
Endnote 4 reads:
"It must be admitted, however, that the statement in the chapter Of
Maeglin in The Silmarillion (p. 136) that Idril Celebrindal 'was golden
as the Vanyar, her mother's kindred' appears already in the original
text (1951; see XI.316); and of course even if the re-use of the passage
did precede the appearance of the idea of the 'golden Vanyar', it needed
correction subsequently."
--
Tar-Elenion

He is a warrior, and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
TT Arvind
2004-04-13 23:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
In LOTR, Tolkien describes the Eldar, the People of the Great Journey,
as tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed.
I read that as only meaning Noldor, hence my mental picture of the Teleri
and many Avari as being much darker skinned. But you may well be right.
My visualisations have not always matched Tolkiens descriptions. For
example, until fairly recently, my mental image of orcs involved them
having pale-grey skin, which is not really supported by anything Tolkien
wrote about them.
--
Never call a man a fool. Borrow from him.
The Consigliere
2004-04-17 01:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Of course, he seems to be a bit confused here, confusing "Eldar" with
Noldor" because he then says they were all dark haired, except for the
golden house of Finarfin. If he meant "Eldar", then only the Avari might
not have been fair of skin.
In Letter #152:

"Only the Eldar (or High-Elves) could still sail thither, forsaking time
and mortality, but never returning."

He seems to be using the term interchangeably here as well.
MP
2004-04-14 04:21:16 UTC
Permalink
There are two articles on alleged racism in Tolkien:

"Black and White in Tolkien"

"How 'Nordic was Tolkien"

at:

http://www.inklingbooks.com/inklingblog/index.html

Also some material on Tolkien and William Morris.

Hope you find them helpful.

--Mike Perry, Seattle
--
****************
Preorder Lord of the Ring DVDs and videos.
http://www.inklingbooks.com/
****************
the softrat
2004-04-12 15:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by AC
On 11 Apr 2004 19:22:50 -0700,
Post by The Consigliere
-----
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that 'black'
represents evil and 'white' represents good?
-----
<<snip>>
Post by AC
I wasn't aware that Orcs were black, unless you mean products of the
Darkness sort of thing. I think the thing that must be remembered that
Elves, Orcs and Dwarves do not represent any race of humans extent or
extinct.
I rather think of Orcs as being green, grey, and blue.....like the oil
pools in the Jersey Swamps.....


the softrat
"I feel like I'm beating my head against a dead horse."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
I must be God. Nobody has any faith in me any more.
Kevin
2004-04-13 00:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Personally, I'm not sure that the word black in relationship to orcs is
always referring to the color of their skin. In some cases, black could be
referring to their disposition being corrupt, foul, evil. Black Uruks could
mean they are a particularly nasty tribe of Uruks, not that they are
necessarity black skinned. Someone with a black heart doesn't necessarily
have a heart that is black in color.
Post by AC
On 11 Apr 2004 19:22:50 -0700,
Post by The Consigliere
-----
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that 'black'
represents evil and 'white' represents good?
-----
Yes; but I don't believe this to be racial distinction. Almost all
mythology and imaginative stories in human history, whatever culture
or society, have made the association of 'Darkness' to Evil and
'Light' to Good. This should not be mistaken for distinction based on
colour of skin.
The sun is the primary source of energy for all living things. Humans
are diurnal creatures and have always been afraid of the night. Thus
it is not very hard to see why light and darkness have created these
associations in our historical psyche.
The reasons are obvious as Tolkien states in Letter #131; "Light is
such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, that it can
hardly be analysed".
I wasn't aware that Orcs were black, unless you mean products of the
Darkness sort of thing. I think the thing that must be remembered that
Elves, Orcs and Dwarves do not represent any race of humans extent or
extinct.
Post by The Consigliere
-----
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
-----
It is important to remember that Orcs, Elves and Dwarves are
completely different species, not different races of humans. It's a
bit like comparing a domesticated dog to a tiger in the wild. In fact
orcs aren't really even 'natural' beings, but were actually
manufactured by the Enemy.
Yes Orcs aren't nice. As to Elves, some of the most heinous crimes
committed in the mythos were done by Elves, and Dwarves could also be
doughty allies, steadfast and the most resistant to domination by the likes
of Sauron.
Post by The Consigliere
-----
7. Aren't the bad characters predominantly black or 'swarthy', i.e.
Melkor, Sauron, Bill Ferny?
-----
How about Saruman, Grima, Gollum, Boromir, and Denethor? There are
just too many exceptions when you consider individual characters.
Melkor is a Valar and Sauron is Maia in any case.
Melkor certainly wasn't black. Sauron was black, but not in the African
sense of the word.
--
Aaron Clausen
Chris Kern
2004-04-13 05:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin
Personally, I'm not sure that the word black in relationship to orcs is
always referring to the color of their skin. In some cases, black could be
referring to their disposition being corrupt, foul, evil. Black Uruks could
mean they are a particularly nasty tribe of Uruks, not that they are
necessarity black skinned. Someone with a black heart doesn't necessarily
have a heart that is black in color.
The best example of this is the term "Black Numenorean", which almost
certainly does not refer to skin color.

For a real-world example, Edward was called the Black Prince because
of the color of his armor, not his skin.

-Chris
Kristian Damm Jensen
2004-04-13 10:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Kern
Post by Kevin
Personally, I'm not sure that the word black in relationship to orcs
is always referring to the color of their skin. In some cases, black
could be referring to their disposition being corrupt, foul, evil.
Black Uruks could mean they are a particularly nasty tribe of Uruks,
not that they are necessarity black skinned. Someone with a black
heart doesn't necessarily have a heart that is black in color.
The best example of this is the term "Black Numenorean", which almost
certainly does not refer to skin color.
For a real-world example, Edward was called the Black Prince because
of the color of his armor, not his skin.
And I would suspect that Eric the Red was either quite pale-skinned or
tanned a light brown.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
No man is an island. So is Man.
Bruce Tucker
2004-04-13 14:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Post by Chris Kern
For a real-world example, Edward was called the Black Prince because
of the color of his armor, not his skin.
And I would suspect that Eric the Red was either quite pale-skinned or
tanned a light brown.
I believe it was an old "Wizard of Id" comic which joked on this by
having a character ask Eric the Red how he got his name, to which he
replied, "One lousy party meeting and you're tagged for life!" ;-)

One presumes he was named either for hair color or for a particularly
nasty temper and the blood it caused him to draw.

I've also heard the Black Prince was so named for his armor, and not
hair color, but many people traditionally referred to as "black" in the
English language - such as the "black Irish" - are so called because of
hair color, not skin color. A famous historical example was James
Douglas, known as the Black Douglas, trusted ally of Robert Bruce and
bane of the English lords of Northumbria.

For all we know, couldn't some of these "black orcs" just be
particularly hairy specimens whose hair is black?
--
Bruce Tucker
disintegration @ mindspring.com
Een Wilde Ier
2004-04-13 18:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Tucker
Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Post by Chris Kern
For a real-world example, Edward was called the Black Prince because
of the color of his armor, not his skin.
And I would suspect that Eric the Red was either quite pale-skinned or
tanned a light brown.
I believe it was an old "Wizard of Id" comic which joked on this by
having a character ask Eric the Red how he got his name, to which he
replied, "One lousy party meeting and you're tagged for life!" ;-)
One presumes he was named either for hair color or for a particularly
nasty temper and the blood it caused him to draw.
I've also heard the Black Prince was so named for his armor, and not
hair color, but many people traditionally referred to as "black" in the
English language - such as the "black Irish" - are so called because of
hair color, not skin color.
?

I know "the black Irish" commonly refers to the inhabitants of
Montserrat and other areas of cotton plantation where both African and
Irish (and Scottish) slave ancestors were put to work, but I've never
heard the "hair" thing before.
Post by Bruce Tucker
A famous historical example was James
Douglas, known as the Black Douglas, trusted ally of Robert Bruce and
bane of the English lords of Northumbria.
Or "black Protestants", a term still to be heard being used by older
people in Ireland...

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/irish-faq/part08/section-12.html
TeaLady (Mari C.)
2004-04-14 01:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
And I would suspect that Eric the Red was either quite
pale-skinned or tanned a light brown.
Or sun-burnt - and thus quite correctly "the Red".
--
mc
J.G. Ballard
2004-04-12 04:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
This would explain why most human races in the story are 'white'. You
wouldn't expect to see a large number of Caucasians in an Indian,
African or Chinese myth would you?
Pretty good research. But if you want to be reeeeaaaally nit-picky,
Indians (from India) are Caucasian (given the rather broad and probably
inaccurate definition of this term). I'd use the term "white" or
"European" instead.

J.G.B.
Speaking Clock
2004-04-12 09:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
And goes on to say that the Nazis are "ruining, perverting,
misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit,
which I have ever loved and presented in it's true light."
I'd be truly surprised to find that Tolkien had added that apostrophe to
"its". :)

Spe'kin' Clock
Taemon
2004-04-12 09:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
FAQ ON TOLKIEN AND RACISM
Bravo! Thank you for writing and posting this.

T.
Arkady
2004-04-12 12:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
FAQ ON TOLKIEN AND RACISM
---------------------------
Impressive and valuable.

Bravo!

Arky
Aris Katsaris
2004-04-12 14:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
FAQ ON TOLKIEN AND RACISM
---------------------------
I have been involved in a lot of discussion with friends who are
genuinely concerned with the perceived racial elements of Tolkien.
Also seeing the volume of posts on this subject I thought it might be
advisable to compile all the arguments into one single FAQ so as to
save future effort and redundant recycling of arguments. Next time
someone comes up and asks whether Tolkien was a racist I can just copy
and paste it.
It took me a while to find all the quotes but using Stuart Jensen's
comments from http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html#Racist and
Mike Brinza's FAQ as starting points helped to find them a lot
quicker.
As a biased fan and I may have missed a lot of points so I would
appreciate any further arguments from either side.
Very good on the whole -- I'm pointing some things you may have
missed.
Post by The Consigliere
-----
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that 'black'
represents evil and 'white' represents good?
-----
That's wrong -- only some of the orcs are black. In the books, black
orcs seem to be mainly the "Uruks", the overseers. For example in
the appendice we have this passage: "In the last years of Denethor I
the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of
Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."
Post by The Consigliere
-----
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
-----
It is important to remember that Orcs, Elves and Dwarves are
completely different species, not different races of humans.
Dwarves are not at all "selfish", they are simply overprotective
of their own. The difference between the two concepts is that
Dwarves will be fiercely loyal to their families and friends, something
that no selfish individual would be.

It's also worth noting that not all elves are noble. There have also
existed traitorous, murderous, racist, and even incestuous elves.
Post by The Consigliere
5. How about the different classes of Humans that are defined by their
blood and ancestry? In the Gondorian society why are the men of
Numenorean decent considered nobler than men of mixed blood?
-----
This is probably the question that has the least satisfactory answer.
During Tolkien's time there was a commonly held conception in his
society that blood carried a set of rights with it. Even in this day
the British (and many other societies) have a monarch and an
aristocracy. This is really more to do with the right of material
inheritance rather than the qualities inherent in blood.
Tolkien describes in the appendices a civil war based on the ideas
of purity of blood. The true and noble and just king was the king
who had the *mixed* blood, while the pureblooded adversary is
described as a tyrant and an usurper.
Post by The Consigliere
7. Aren't the bad characters predominantly black or 'swarthy', i.e.
Melkor, Sauron, Bill Ferny?
-----
How about Saruman, Grima, Gollum, Boromir, and Denethor? There are
just too many exceptions when you consider individual characters.
Melkor is a Valar and Sauron is Maia in any case.
Melkor wasn't ever described as black, AFAIK.
Post by The Consigliere
8. This statement was made by Tolkien in Letter #210: "Orcs are squat,
broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in
fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least
lovely Mongol-types." How is this not racist?
-----
This statement gave me a lot of grief initially. At first glance it
can be taken as evidence of racism. However as a poster on this board
(I've infortunately forgotten who it was) mentioned a long while back,
the qualifier; "to Europeans" actually proves otherwise.
It may have been me. Not sure.

Aris Katsaris
The Consigliere
2004-04-12 23:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that 'black'
represents evil and 'white' represents good?
That's wrong -- only some of the orcs are black. In the books, black
orcs seem to be mainly the "Uruks", the overseers. For example in
the appendice we have this passage: "In the last years of Denethor I
the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of
Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."
Yes, there seems to be debate as to whether a majority of Orcs were
black.

But consider that the FAQ was written for the IMDB boards and thus the
primary audience was the movie going public.

Secondly if I were to point out that the orcs were in fact 'swallow'
the argument from the detractors remain the same, only this time they
replace 'Blacks' with 'Mongols' and Asians', and their takes on an
even more obstinate flavour in light of Tolkien's rather crude
comments on 'Mongoloids'.
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
-----
It is important to remember that Orcs, Elves and Dwarves are
completely different species, not different races of humans.
Dwarves are not at all "selfish", they are simply overprotective
of their own. The difference between the two concepts is that
Dwarves will be fiercely loyal to their families and friends, something
that no selfish individual would be.
In the modern context, 'looking after your own' with disregard to
other parties is considered selfish. The disparaging way in which
Elrond states this in FotR (movie) adds to that perception.
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
5. How about the different classes of Humans that are defined by their
blood and ancestry? In the Gondorian society why are the men of
Numenorean decent considered nobler than men of mixed blood?
-----
This is probably the question that has the least satisfactory answer.
During Tolkien's time there was a commonly held conception in his
society that blood carried a set of rights with it. Even in this day
the British (and many other societies) have a monarch and an
aristocracy. This is really more to do with the right of material
inheritance rather than the qualities inherent in blood.
Tolkien describes in the appendices a civil war based on the ideas
of purity of blood. The true and noble and just king was the king
who had the *mixed* blood, while the pureblooded adversary is
described as a tyrant and an usurper.
Eldacar is one of my favourite characters, despite Tolkien not saying
much about him. I will include this in a future version.
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
7. Aren't the bad characters predominantly black or 'swarthy', i.e.
Melkor, Sauron, Bill Ferny?
-----
How about Saruman, Grima, Gollum, Boromir, and Denethor? There are
just too many exceptions when you consider individual characters.
Melkor is a Valar and Sauron is Maia in any case.
Melkor wasn't ever described as black, AFAIK.
The literal meaning of Morgoth is 'Black Enemy'. I agree that the
'Black' here may not be describing the colour of his raiment or form,
but was rather meant to be taken as 'dark' in character. But try
convincing people that. :)
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
8. This statement was made by Tolkien in Letter #210: "Orcs are squat,
broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in
fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least
lovely Mongol-types." How is this not racist?
-----
This statement gave me a lot of grief initially. At first glance it
can be taken as evidence of racism. However as a poster on this board
(I've infortunately forgotten who it was) mentioned a long while back,
the qualifier; "to Europeans" actually proves otherwise.
It may have been me. Not sure.
Wow, do you post on the IMDB boards? Well hi there! Nice to see some
of us are spreading our wings around the net. :)

Thanks for all your suggestions Aris. I will try to update the FAQ as
soon as possible.

How do I go about publishing the new version on the Usenet though?
There isn't anything like the 'edit' button over here. :) Do post a
new thread? I don't want to flood it with all my updates.

Damn. I had happily forgotten how it was like to be a newbie. It's all
coming back. :(
Post by Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
Christopher Kreuzer
2004-04-13 00:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
But consider that the FAQ was written for the IMDB boards and thus the
primary audience was the movie going public.
Which is not really the audience you have here.
Post by The Consigliere
In the modern context, 'looking after your own' with disregard to
other parties is considered selfish. The disparaging way in which
Elrond states this in FotR (movie) adds to that perception.
But the perception is wrong. Tolkien died long before the films were
made. The films have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Tolkien's opinions as
mediated through his writings and letters.

It sounds like you need to write separate FAQs for the books and films.
Post by The Consigliere
Post by Aris Katsaris
Melkor wasn't ever described as black, AFAIK.
The literal meaning of Morgoth is 'Black Enemy'. I agree that the
'Black' here may not be describing the colour of his raiment or form,
but was rather meant to be taken as 'dark' in character. But try
convincing people that. :)
Remember that 'Mor-' can be Black or Dark.
Moriquendi = Dark Elves.
And that is dark, not the colour black.
Post by The Consigliere
How do I go about publishing the new version on the Usenet though?
There isn't anything like the 'edit' button over here. :) Do post a
new thread? I don't want to flood it with all my updates.
Um. Flood Usenet all you like. It is archived, but it is not a permanent
fixture like a web-based bulletin board. Think of it more like e-mail.
Anyone who doesn't want your updates will delete them.

For a more permanent existence for such a FAQ, consider publishing it as
a webpage, and post links here and post the text at regular intervals.
Ask the FAQ people round here.

Oh, and get more consensus first. I personally think your FAQ needs
quite a bit more work, and is too film-orientated at the moment. It
would also be better integrated as a subset of other FAQs, rather than
its own FAQ.

Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
The Consigliere
2004-04-15 12:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Post by The Consigliere
But consider that the FAQ was written for the IMDB boards and thus the
primary audience was the movie going public.
Which is not really the audience you have here.
That's correct. I only posted it here to satisfy a request and to get
some feedback (which has been great).
Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Post by The Consigliere
In the modern context, 'looking after your own' with disregard to
other parties is considered selfish. The disparaging way in which
Elrond states this in FotR (movie) adds to that perception.
But the perception is wrong. Tolkien died long before the films were
made. The films have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Tolkien's opinions as
mediated through his writings and letters.
It sounds like you need to write separate FAQs for the books and films.
Those of us who have read the books a few times before the movies came
out are familiar with the explanations provided by Tolkien and are
aware of the ambiguities. I don't think an FAQ is necessary for that
faction of the audience.

Instead it is for those who have either read the books after watching
the film, or they had seen the film when the images in their minds
were still not cemented. For these fans of Tolkien the Balrogs will
have wings, Gandalf will look like Ian McKellan, the Orcs will be
black and the Dwarves essentially mind their own business.

In fact _I_ never had an exact image of the Balrog in my mind, but
now, for better or for worse, it seems I have to accept the one with
wings.
Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Oh, and get more consensus first. I personally think your FAQ needs
quite a bit more work, and is too film-orientated at the moment. It
would also be better integrated as a subset of other FAQs, rather than
its own FAQ.
I think I've created the wrong impression here. This FAQ wasn't meant
to be accepted as the other FAQs. It would be overly presumptuous of
me to even think that, especially since I have just started posting
here.

No, this was just for my own personal use, I been getting into a lot
of discussions, flame wars, and almost-fist-fights about this subject
and I find myself repeating things. Basically this was for me to cut
and paste.

I was glad to see it being used by others in the IMDB board but even
there not many people knew about it, partly because I didn't do much
to promote it, and partly because by the time I had finished with it
the discussions had already died down.
But thanks for your suggestions and interests nonetheless.

Take care, TC
AC
2004-04-13 00:42:01 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Apr 2004 16:28:43 -0700,
Post by The Consigliere
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
-----
It is important to remember that Orcs, Elves and Dwarves are
completely different species, not different races of humans.
Dwarves are not at all "selfish", they are simply overprotective
of their own. The difference between the two concepts is that
Dwarves will be fiercely loyal to their families and friends, something
that no selfish individual would be.
In the modern context, 'looking after your own' with disregard to
other parties is considered selfish. The disparaging way in which
Elrond states this in FotR (movie) adds to that perception.
Having only seen the movie once, I can't really comment on this. However,
Durin's folk most certainly did not just look after themselves. During the
Second Age there was great friendship between the Noldor and Khazad-dum, and
even during the War of the Ring, Dain would not betray Bilbo to Sauron's
representatives.

Were there selfish Dwarves? Darn right. Were they a secretive lot?
Yessir. However, many among the Noldor were hardly paragons of virtue. I'd
sooner have spent my days and nights with Thorin Oakenshield than with
Feanor.
Post by The Consigliere
Post by Aris Katsaris
Post by The Consigliere
7. Aren't the bad characters predominantly black or 'swarthy', i.e.
Melkor, Sauron, Bill Ferny?
-----
How about Saruman, Grima, Gollum, Boromir, and Denethor? There are
just too many exceptions when you consider individual characters.
Melkor is a Valar and Sauron is Maia in any case.
Melkor wasn't ever described as black, AFAIK.
The literal meaning of Morgoth is 'Black Enemy'. I agree that the
'Black' here may not be describing the colour of his raiment or form,
but was rather meant to be taken as 'dark' in character. But try
convincing people that. :)
When people make idiotic claims, just ask for textual evidence. There is no
evidence that Morgoth was black-skinned.
--
Aaron Clausen
***@hotmail.com
Een Wilde Ier
2004-04-13 00:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by AC
On 12 Apr 2004 16:28:43 -0700,
<snip>
Post by AC
Were there selfish Dwarves? Darn right. Were they a secretive lot?
Yessir. However, many among the Noldor were hardly paragons of virtue. I'd
sooner have spent my days and nights with Thorin Oakenshield
<snip>

*ewww* :-/
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-04-14 19:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by AC
On 12 Apr 2004 16:28:43 -0700,
[snip]
Post by AC
Post by The Consigliere
The literal meaning of Morgoth is 'Black Enemy'. I agree that the
'Black' here may not be describing the colour of his raiment or form,
but was rather meant to be taken as 'dark' in character. But try
convincing people that. :)
When people make idiotic claims, just ask for textual evidence. There is no
evidence that Morgoth was black-skinned.
The Silmarillion states that his hands were burned black by the
Silmarils, and remained so - suggesting firstly that they were *not*
black before, and secondly that the rest of him was not at that
time black. In either case, I would assume 'black' in the context of
Morgoth or of Orcs to mean a true black, as seen in black birds or
black-furred mammals, rather than a euphemism for dark-skinned brown.

I would have said that Tolkien never uses the latter meaning, but I
find that in the description of the battle before Minas Tirith he does
mention 'black' *men* from Far Harad who are obviously negroid in type,
as opposed to the Black Numenoreans or Dark Elves.
--
Igenlode <***@nym.alias.net> Bookwraith unabashed

loose (archaic): set free, unleash - lose: mislay, be defeated
Stan Brown
2004-04-12 15:39:06 UTC
Permalink
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (?etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
------
As many posters have repeatedly mentioned, the story was written as a
mythology for Northern Europe and specifically England.
[big snip]

With respect, I think your entire answer, though accurate, is very
much beside the point. It's bad strategy because it implicitly
concedes the terms of debate to the questioner.

The right answer, in my opinion, is that Middle-earth is not
reality(*), and that in Tolkien's world the divisions are between
Elf, Human, Dwarf, Hobbit, etc. There are nationalities, but no
races within the Human race.

(*) Gasp!
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Javier Caselli
2004-04-12 17:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
The right answer, in my opinion, is that Middle-earth is not
reality(*), etc, etc...
(*) Gasp!
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Öjevind Lång
2004-04-17 16:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Javier Caselli
Post by Stan Brown
The right answer, in my opinion, is that Middle-earth is not
reality(*), etc, etc...
(*) Gasp!
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Hü hü hü. Its true!

P. S. Welcome back. :-)

Öjevind
The Consigliere
2004-04-12 22:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (?etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
------
As many posters have repeatedly mentioned, the story was written as a
mythology for Northern Europe and specifically England.
[big snip]
The right answer, in my opinion, is that Middle-earth is not
reality(*), and that in Tolkien's world the divisions are between
Elf, Human, Dwarf, Hobbit, etc. There are nationalities, but no
races within the Human race.
First thing to keep in mind is that the FAQ was written with the movie
audience in mind. It was initially posted on the IMDB message boards.
For viewers of the film and those who read the book afterwards, and
even to many who had read the books before, it seems that there were
races among men. The movie takes an unambiguous stance on this but
even Tolkien's writing seems to lean that way with the usage of words
like 'swarthy' and 'swat' to describe certain groups of men, and to
differentiate the 'race of Numenor' from 'lower' races.

I have also observed that the argument of 'this is fantasy not
reality' is not entirely convincing to a modern audience. Most people
seem to feel that any text despite being fantasy does reflect elements
of reality from the author's mind. I've found that the most convincing
way to go about changing their minds is to deal with the argument from
their way of thinking.
Stan Brown
2004-04-13 01:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
First thing to keep in mind is that the FAQ was written with the movie
audience in mind.
Then why even bring up Tolkien? The question would seem to be
whether Jackson is a racist, since it's his story.

Either way, it's a silly question, but I don't blame you for the
fact that silly people ask it.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Flame of the West
2004-04-13 05:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
I have also observed that the argument of 'this is fantasy not
reality' is not entirely convincing to a modern audience. Most people
seem to feel that any text despite being fantasy does reflect elements
of reality from the author's mind. I've found that the most convincing
way to go about changing their minds is to deal with the argument from
their way of thinking.
Alternatively, you could just implant some brain cells in their heads.


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
The Consigliere
2004-04-13 09:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flame of the West
Post by The Consigliere
I have also observed that the argument of 'this is fantasy not
reality' is not entirely convincing to a modern audience. Most people
seem to feel that any text despite being fantasy does reflect elements
of reality from the author's mind. I've found that the most convincing
way to go about changing their minds is to deal with the argument from
their way of thinking.
Alternatively, you could just implant some brain cells in their heads.
Yes I am waiting on the technology :) Until such time I guess I have
to do it the hard way: reason with them!
C.Groth
2004-04-12 19:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
-----
8. This statement was made by Tolkien in Letter #210: "Orcs are squat,
broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in
fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least
lovely Mongol-types." How is this not racist?
-----
This statement gave me a lot of grief initially. At first glance it
can be taken as evidence of racism. However as a poster on this board
(I've infortunately forgotten who it was) mentioned a long while back,
the qualifier; "to Europeans" actually proves otherwise. It shows that
he actually acknowledges the different measures of beauty existent in
different cultures. He shows that beauty is not an absolute quality
but is rather in the eye of the beholder whose opinions are shaped by
social constraints.
And the fact that "least lovely Mongol-types" can imply that there are
lovely Mongol-types.
TT Arvind
2004-04-13 00:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Wes ðu The Consigliere hal!
Post by The Consigliere
In addition to this the descendants of Elros further
enriched the Numenorean blood. (Elros being the Elf who
chose to be a human, one of only two Elves to be given that choice.)
Half-elf. As far as I remember, Luthien was the only elf to be given the
choice. And if you're speaking of half-elves, Elrond's children had the
choice too. (Yes, I know it's a niggle, sorry).
Post by The Consigliere
Even given these gifts we know that the Numenoreans commit grievous
crimes, eventually resulting in great catastrophe. The damage that
they caused due to their arrogance and thirst for power was far
greater than any other that Humans or Elves have caused since.
To this you might want to add that the Númenoreans were not 'one race' in
any sense of the word. They included people like the Druedain, who are
of the same stock as the Woses.
Post by The Consigliere
We also have to consider their particular geographic position.
You might also want to add that the Dunlendings, who are very prominent
enemies, are 'racially' the same stock as the men of Bree, who are
clearly not villains.

One issue which it may be worth addressing more expressly is Tolkien's
repeated use of the phrase 'lesser men' to distinguish non-Númenoreans
from Númenoreans in section 5. I'm talking about sentences like "the
wisdom and the life-span of the Númenoreans also waned as they became
mingled with lesser Men."

--
mey solli kettavanum illai
poy solli válndavanum illai
The Consigliere
2004-04-15 13:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu The Consigliere hal!
Post by The Consigliere
In addition to this the descendants of Elros further
enriched the Numenorean blood. (Elros being the Elf who
chose to be a human, one of only two Elves to be given that choice.)
Half-elf. As far as I remember, Luthien was the only elf to be given the
choice. And if you're speaking of half-elves, Elrond's children had the
choice too. (Yes, I know it's a niggle, sorry).
No it's not a niggle at all. Thank you for pointing that out. It was
an embarrassingly stupid oversight on my part.
Post by TT Arvind
One issue which it may be worth addressing more expressly is Tolkien's
repeated use of the phrase 'lesser men' to distinguish non-Númenoreans
from Númenoreans in section 5. I'm talking about sentences like "the
wisdom and the life-span of the Númenoreans also waned as they became
mingled with lesser Men."
Good point. That phrasing _does_ get to me sometimes. I think I will
speak of this in context with the story of Eldacar and Castamir.

The other suggestions were great too. Thank for that!

Have a good one
TC
Lee Derbyshire
2004-04-14 22:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
------
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (.etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
------
The whole setting is fictional, surely? There are no European, American,
etc. characters, either.
The Consigliere
2004-04-15 13:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Derbyshire
Post by The Consigliere
------
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (.etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
------
The whole setting is fictional, surely? There are no European, American,
etc. characters, either.
I don't think one would be entirely unreasonable to suggest that even
though Middle-earth is fantastical, there are still meant to be
geographical parallels with the real world. It is, after all, meant to
be an alternative history or mythology for Northern Europe.
Lee Derbyshire
2004-04-15 16:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
Post by Lee Derbyshire
Post by The Consigliere
------
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (.etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
------
The whole setting is fictional, surely? There are no European, American,
etc. characters, either.
I don't think one would be entirely unreasonable to suggest that even
though Middle-earth is fantastical, there are still meant to be
geographical parallels with the real world. It is, after all, meant to
I would think that such parallels were purely incidental; unless you have
read one or more interviews with Prof. T that suggest otherwise? I haven't
read many, I must confess, so there may be a few surprises in store for me.

I, personally, can't believe that Tolkien was a racist. I don't even
believe the concept existed in those days in way it does today. But I think
that if you look hard enough for such things, you will generally find them.
A bit like McCarthyism. I also think that attempting to map Middle Earth
onto a mundane setting is to concede a little ground to this mischevous
intent.
Post by The Consigliere
be an alternative history or mythology for Northern Europe.
Hmm, I suspect you have read a lot more about Tolkien 'the man' than I have.
But I would guess that since he would have been under constant pressure to
provide ever more detail about his books, it is quite possible that his
original inspirations may never be revealed to us, since these might have
evolved along with the explanations.

To be honest, I think you have done a worthy thing and ought to be
congratulated. My own inclination would be to ignore the accusations, but I
don't honestly believe that mine is the most constructive policy.
s***@nomail.com
2004-04-15 16:57:06 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Lee Derbyshire <email ***@t leederbyshire d.0.t c.0.m> wrote:
: "The Consigliere" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:***@posting.google.com...
:> "Lee Derbyshire" <email ***@t leederbyshire d.0.t c.0.m> wrote in message
: news:<***@news01.eclipse.net.uk>...
:> > "The Consigliere" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:> > news:***@posting.google.com...
:> > > ------
:> > > 1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (.etc) humans in the story.
:> > > Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
:> > > ------
:> >
:> > The whole setting is fictional, surely? There are no European,
: American,
:> > etc. characters, either.
:>
:> I don't think one would be entirely unreasonable to suggest that even
:> though Middle-earth is fantastical, there are still meant to be
:> geographical parallels with the real world. It is, after all, meant to

: I would think that such parallels were purely incidental; unless you have
: read one or more interviews with Prof. T that suggest otherwise? I haven't
: read many, I must confess, so there may be a few surprises in store for me.

Such parallels are entirely intentional. Here are some quotes
from Letters.


'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without
relation to the world we live in .... And though I have not attempted to
relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may
say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is
supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.
[Letters, 220 (#165)]

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. ...
The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the
historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are
all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it
feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance
in time. [Letters, 239 (#183)]

He started out by writing a mythology for England, in which
Tol Eressea (sp?) ended up becoming Great Britain. This idea
was modified, and later abandoned, but the stories were always
set in an imaginary European prehistory. This is even mentioned
in the Prologue of LOTR.

Stephen
Lee Derbyshire
2004-04-15 17:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nomail.com
: I would think that such parallels were purely incidental; unless you have
: read one or more interviews with Prof. T that suggest otherwise? I haven't
: read many, I must confess, so there may be a few surprises in store for me.
Such parallels are entirely intentional. Here are some quotes
from Letters.
'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without
relation to the world we live in .... And though I have not attempted to
relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may
say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is
supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.
[Letters, 220 (#165)]
I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. ...
The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the
historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are
all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it
feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance
in time. [Letters, 239 (#183)]
He started out by writing a mythology for England, in which
Tol Eressea (sp?) ended up becoming Great Britain. This idea
was modified, and later abandoned, but the stories were always
set in an imaginary European prehistory. This is even mentioned
in the Prologue of LOTR.
Stephen
Many thanks for this illumination. I guess I ought to get a hold of
'Letters' and educate myself.

When I was younger, I really ~did~ wish that Middle-Earth was based on a
geographically accurate location. My obvious wish being to visit the place
whose characters had given me so much inspiration. When I grew older, I
learned that inspiration can be found anywhere, and reconciled myself to the
thought that Middle-Earth was fictional in every possible sense.

The creatures of Middle-Earth, though, are ~surely~ fictional? :)
Odysseus
2004-04-17 08:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Derbyshire
When I was younger, I really ~did~ wish that Middle-Earth was based on a
geographically accurate location. My obvious wish being to visit the place
whose characters had given me so much inspiration. When I grew older, I
learned that inspiration can be found anywhere, and reconciled myself to the
thought that Middle-Earth was fictional in every possible sense.
IIRC Humphrey Carpenter's biography suggests real prototypes for a
few places in Middle-earth, especially locations in the Shire; most
are in the West Midlands.
--
Odysseus
The Consigliere
2004-04-19 11:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Consigliere
FAQ ON TOLKIEN AND RACISM
---------------------------
-----
PS; This is a copy of an essay I originally posted for the Tolkien
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866058/board/nest/4761136
BB's reply to my post on that site was quite insightful and I would
like to repost it here in the near future. But till that time please
follow the link provided above to access it.
-----
I've asked BB's permission so here is the complete text of his reply.
Please note that I had to change the formatting:
--------
There are many reasons why people toss the label of racism at Tolkien's
fiction. These reasons usually center on a lack of knowledge about
Tolkien and his myth. And also a lack of perspective in looking at
statements in the context of the greater meaning of the story.

I'll now add my two cents to your questions.
Post by The Consigliere
1. There are no African, Indian, Japanese (…etc) humans in the story.
Is Tolkien guilty of racism because of this?
National epics and myths are about certain nations and peoples. Samurai
myths are about Japan. Kung fu myths are about China. Buddhist myths are
about Asia. Isn't the mythology of northern Europe worthy of its own
story?
Post by The Consigliere
2. Why was he so concerned about England and Northern Europe over
other parts of the world? Isn't he overly preoccupied with Nordic
regions?
This criticism is really silly. Hollywood movies dominate the world. And
most Hollywood movies have stories about the USA. Is this racism?
Frankly with all the USA cultural dominance, a story about Northern
European myth is a welcome change.
Post by The Consigliere
3. Orcs are black and Elves are white. Isn't this showing that
'black' represents evil and 'white' represents good?
This is an unfortunate confusion between the use of the word 'black' as
a color and in its modern usage in referring to a race.

Tolkien was an expert with words and languages. In his time this was a
definition for the people from Africa;

negroid
adj : characteristic of people traditionally classified as the Negro
race; "negroid features" n : a person with dark skin who comes from
Africa (or whose ancestors came from Africa)(dictionary.com)

By contrast the color black in its traditional definitions had some
negative meaning

black

3. Fig.: Dismal, gloomy, or forbidding, like darkness; destitute of
moral light or goodness; atrociously wicked; cruel; mournful;
calamitous; horrible. ``This day's black fate.'' ``Black villainy.''
``Arise, black vengeance.'' ``Black day.'' ``Black despair.'' --
Shakespeare

4. Expressing menace, or discontent; threatening; sullen; foreboding;
as, to regard one with black looks. (dictionary.com)

Tolkien was using the word as defined in his time. It was not meant as a
demeaning reference to race.
Post by The Consigliere
4. Orcs are bad, Elves are noble, Dwarves are selfish and greedy.
Doesn't this mean that character traits are predetermined by race?
At the level of the story the Elves and Orcs are as you describe, not as
human groups as we know them today. Another interpretaton of this is
that at its core the conception of the Elves and the Orcs are potential
aspects of human nature.

The Elves are like the original people of the Bible; i.e. Adam and Eve
before their banishment (the Fall) from the Garden of Eden. Before the
Fall, Adam and Eve were immortal.

"Elves and men are just different aspects of the humane" Tolkien letters
#181

The Orcs by contrast are people reduced to giving up their free will and
lacking in redeeming morality.

"Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic'
fiction:...In real...life men are on both sides: which means a motley
alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally honest men, and
angels." Tolkien letters #71

This isn't about race but the deepest aspects of our nature. In
Gollum/Smeagol or Boromir we have characters who wrestle between these
sides of themselves.
Post by The Consigliere
5. How about the different classes of Humans that are defined by their
blood and ancestry? In the Gondorian society why are the men of
Numenorean decent considered nobler than men of mixed blood?
It is often ignored that the entire island of Numenor by an act of God
is sunk into the sea drowning most of its population. That these people
practiced human sacrifice and Satan worship.

What can't seem to be forgiven by some overly sensitive folks is that as
a myth Tolkien presents the mythical concept of aristocracy. The
Numenoreans were often worse than the Easterners or Southerners. The
idea that a Numenorean must always be more noble than others is a myth
within the myth.

This is illustrated by Aragorn. Is Aragorn good because he is descended
from Elros? Rationally the answer is no. Plenty of Elros' descendants
were awful people. We can logically conclude that Aragorn is a good
person mostly because of his excellent upbringing in the house of
Elrond. But this is myth and not science. Tolkien is aware of the need
of people to believe in the myth of the leader which has some divine
power. As he says about Aragorn's power to heal Eowyn in "The Houses of
Healing";

"Then, whether Aragorn had indeed some forgotten power of Westernesse,
or whether it was but his words of the Lady Eowyn"

Is he just a kind person and that leads to his power of healing or must
this ability be wrapped in myth and legend? Tolkien is giving us a
glimpse of the Numenor here. From just looking at the facts he presents
in the entire myth the Numenor are ordinary people. But due to the
mythical process which is part of human nature they are BELIEVED to be
something more than they are.

So, is good behavior confused with appearance and race? Yes. It is a
part of human nature to do so. This process is also shown with Faramir
and Frodo in "The Window on the West: TTT";

"there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air maybe."

Frodo is obviously not an Elf. But his behavior is described in terms of
that race. On the surface it's silly, but certainly mythical. But what
Tolkien is also doing is undermining the entire racial explanation of
good behavior. Frodo and Sam are lowly Hobbits. Yet, they are the heroes
of Lord of the Rings which to our modern eyes throws the racial
explanation of behavior out the window. But at that time of history in
the story, people like Faramir cannot yet accept the obvious. Of course
most people in the world today still associate human behavior with race.
So, I can't be too hard on old Faramir.
Post by The Consigliere
6. Ok then let us look at the different races of humans, the Haradrim
and the Easterlings were described as swarthy and squint-eyed. Tolkien
mentioned in the Two Towers that "they were ever ready to His
(Sauron's) will". Doesn't that imply that they are racially
predisposed to evil?
This negativity about swarthy people is about emotion and selective
reading than a balanced view. From "Of The Ruin Of Beleriand: The
Silmarillion";

"It is told that at this time the Swarthy Men came first into
Beleriand...The sons of Bor were Borlad, Borlach, and Borthand; and they
followed Maedhros and Maglor, and cheated the hope of Morgoth, and were
faithful."

From "Return of the King: Minas Tirith";

"Forlong has come'...Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men,
well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and
shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in
Gondor."

If given a chance, people of all races who have free will have the
potential to do good in the real world and in Tolkien's myth.

* The rest of your statements, 7 & 8 I'm in agreement and have nothing
to add.

Have a good one, BB ;-)
--------------

If you want to reply to BB's comment the best way would be to reply to
the post at:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866058/board/nest/4761136?d=4761863#4761863
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